Betta & Koi & Goldfish?

[SRC]

Ok, Alright, I'll accept that information...

but, I have a few questions though...

At what temp are they claming this process (of the supression of oxygen levels) starts to happen? That tidbit of information does not appear to be stated (or I couldn't find it..never saw any degrees mention until the bottom, where it suggested not to go below 53 degrees F (12 degrees C) or there could be a supression of the immune system)?

Do they mean over 90 degrees, over 80 degrees, what?

It's hard to accept a theory that does not give proper diagnostics. If it means over 90 degrees...who keeps there fish at that temp, normally? Not many. Most don't go over 80-86 degrees.

That site also states...

if the total oxygen demand of the system, which includes fish, bacteria and submerged plants, exceeds the dissolved oxygen levels the fish are likely to suffer. Although in a well-aerated pond or aquaria this would be unusual, it can happen when;

there are large amounts of submerged plants and algae, because they remove oxygen at night (see photosynthesis)

So that being said, people with highly planted, heated tanks could face the same problems?

Let's assume this particular theory is referring to temps over 80 degrees, and you were afraid of the problem arising from the elevated heat...a simple solution would be to #1. make sure you have enough surface area, and #2. add an airstone, to give the water an oxygen boost. Seems a filter would also help airate the tank, as it breaks the surface tension when it dumps the filtered water back into the tank.

If you are dealing with a variety of goldfish that lives in temps up to 90 degrees I highly doubt they are going to die from lack of oxygen..unless you have them in an environment that does not have enough surface area to allow the water to absorb enough oxygen.

If you really want to keep your goldfish in an undersized tank with a fish they will kill, fine, but in the end, you're going to be changing your screen name to "Ihavenolivingfish."

you go girl!

 

[OohFeeshy]

Sure, go ahead. After all, straight from the immature's mouth-

Its my fish and I can do whaever I want with it!

 

[supersixone]

Ok, Alright, I'll accept that information...

but, I have a few questions though...

At what temp are they claming this process (of the supression of oxygen levels) starts to happen? That tidbit of information does not appear to be stated (or I couldn't find it..never saw any degrees mention until the bottom, where it suggested not to go below 53 degrees F (12 degrees C) or there could be a supression of the immune system)?....It's hard to accept a theory that does not give proper diagnostics.

i don't think you're quite understanding, or perhaps i'm not understanding your question. this is not a theory; it is a concrete fact that oxygen solubility in water decreases with increasing temperature. there is a limited amount of oxygen that can be dissolved in water. when water is already saturated with oxygen (has as much dissolved as can possibly be dissolved), adding an airstone is not going to add any more oxygen into the water because it physically cannot hold any more. the very best it could do is keep the water saturated with oxygen, if it mixes it well enough.

look at this chart; it shows how much oxygen can be dissolved as a function of temperature. for example, water that is 20 degrees C (68 F) can hold 9.2 mg/L oxygen, while water that is 25 degrees C (77 F) can only hold 8.4 mg/L oxygen. the temperature at which fish begin to be affected of course depends on the type of fish and size of fish. goldfish are said to have high dissolved oxygen requirements. when keeping goldfish at warmer temps, you have the following problems: 1) warmer water cannot hold as much dissolved oxygen as cooler water 2) warmer water raises the fish's metabolism, thereby increasing the amount of oxygen the fish needs. you'd need even more agitation of the water to keep dissolved oxygen at acceptable levels, which of course is harmful to the betta.

the part about 53 degrees and immune response is a separate section; that is discussing fish metabolism, not oxygen requirements.

 

[Durbkat]

Don't jump on me for this but my moms friend has a either a 5 ,10, or a 12g tank with like 2 of those dye injected tetras, 2 goldfish, 4 neon tetras. and a betta in this tank that has a really small filter and no heater. It makes me sick seeing this betta with shredded fins and sitting on the bottom and the goldfish getting picked on by the tetras and the tetras also picking on the betta also the goldfish are attack the betta to

 

[The-Wolf]

And that's all I'm saying.

 

[Synirr]

Warmer water isn't going to make them poop or produce more ammonia either...

I'm gonna be anal and disagree on this one... Higher temperatures increase the metabolic rates of cold-blooded animals, so high temps actually do make them produce more waste and ammonia because they are producing it at a faster rate. It also makes them age faster, though the effects of this are negligible depending on what temp the species is adapted to and how much higher the temp in the tank is.

bettas don't eat flakes anyways...

Of course they do, just reluctantly

You can't be selfish, greedy, or irrational when trying to care for fish. It's not fair to the fish...

Amen to that!! No one forces you to be a pet owner. If you're not going to care for them properly, don't have them at all, it's as simple as that. They deserve an owner who is going to take care of them like they were meant to be taken care of. They are not decorations.

 

[SRC]

I said I accept the fact that warmer water reduced the oxygen count of the water..what I questioned was that article (everything is a theory when it is put out for people to use (like the theory of relativity..it's a well known publication but it's still called a theory..I didn't mean theory in the regards of it being like a concept) and the fact that it didn't mention at what point this process starts to happen, I simply referenced the immune system to show that was the only portion of the srticle that mentioned a specific temperature with a known cause.

I'm not going to argue with you about this...my brain is tired, my back hurts, and I've got until Wed at 6pm to finish my midterm project for my Interior Design class, and someone used my backer board to cut scrap while I was in another class...so I'm back to square 1 on half of my project....I can't even think what I want to say right now....if this is still around next week...I'll come back to it. I had a well thought out post earlier..but now it's all but lost, along with my sanity it seems lol.

 

[supersixone]

the fact that it didn't mention at what point this process starts to happen, I simply referenced the immune system to show that was the only portion of the srticle that mentioned a specific temperature with a known cause.

what process starts to happen? are you looking for a cutoff point where fish just can't survive anymore, or are you doubting that decreased oxygen can kill fish? different species of fish have different oxygen requirements and even within the same species, oxygen requirements will increase in warmer temperatures. there are also other factors besides temperature that affect dissolved oxygen levels. higher salinity decreases the amount of oxygen that can be dissolved. still water will have less oxygen than moving water. remember, those figures are the MAXIMUM amount of oxygen the water can hold at the listed temperature. everything else being equal, a warmer tank will have less dissolved oxygen than a cooler tank. why you'd want to do that to a fish that needs a lot of oxygen is beyond me. when power companies discharge warm water into nearby streams, fish suffocate. when it's extremely warm out, pond fish that are not cooled properly gasp for air. it happens. as far as i'm concerned, it's not really debatable that temperature does affect oxygen content in a way that is relevant to fish.

 

[Durbkat]

Wait a minute... where is Ihave2goldfish? We've been arguing on here and he/she hasn't said a thing to defend him/her self.


The-Wolf where did you get that simily face saying "don't feed the troll" ? Also what does that mean? Or does that mean don't give Ihave2goldfish any ideas?

 

[RandomWiktor]

"Don't feed the troll" basically means "don't reply to topics made by people who are deliberately trying to cause trouble." It suggests that the person who posted that comment thinks that Ihave2goldfish is posting just to anger people, not because she has serious intentions of mixing the species mentioned.

 

[Durbkat]

Oh now I understand what a freaking trouble maker she should get some kind of punishment where all of his/her post have to be approved by a mod for 2 weeks and then if a mod sees that this person is trying to start a topic like this one they don't have to approve it.

 

[consp]

Meh. ihave2goldfish may be a troll but they've brought up a really helpful topic (water temps and oxygen) so yeah... thanks ihave2goldfish you've allowed us to open our minds and learn more