Bacterial Additives...

[eaglesaquarium]

***EDIT****

I'm finally starting my fishless cycle now. Here are the water relevant details:

10 gallon tank - hasn't been used for 15+ years.
Brand new - Avoo sponge filter 7 and Marineland Penguin 350 (to move to a 56 gallon tank in the future).
Fluval M series 200W heater

Tap water (dechlorinated)
pH: 7.0, NH3: 0.25ppm (due to chloramines, I believe), NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 0ppm.


I raised the pH to 8.4 with 2 tbsp of sodium bicarb.
Temp is running at a pretty steady 84F.


I added 1.5mL of NH3 to raise it to 4ppm. I let it sit for about 30 minutes in the tank before I added the bacteria. I added a full bottle (up to 30 gallons worth) to the 10 gallon tank. I pulled the sponge out of the water, squeezed a bit of water out of it, and poured the bacteria right over it. Hopefully they will start to establish themselves there.


Day 0: 4/29/11 - 22:00 - pH 8.2, NH3: 4ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 0ppm, Temp: 82F.
Day 1: 4/30/11 - 10:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 4ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 0ppm. Temp:83F
Day 1: 4/30/11 - 22:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 3-4ppm, NO2:0ppm, NO3:0ppm, Temp: 84F (Full 24 hours)
Day 2: 5/01/11 - 09:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 3-4ppm (hard to tell, but a bit lighter than 4ppm), NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 0ppm, temp: 83F
Day 2: 5/01/11 - 21:00 - pH 8.4, NH3: 2-3ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: >0ppm, < 5ppm, if I had to guess, I'd say 1-2 ppm, temp: 84F.
Day 3: 5/02/11 - 07:00 - pH:N/A, NH3: 1-2 ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: >0ppm, <5ppm, maybe 2-3ppm?, temp 84F. (work week)
Day 3: 5/02/11 - 20:00 - pH:N/A, NH3:1ppm (definitely), NO2:0ppm, NO3:>0ppm, <5ppm, temp 84F
Day 4: 5/03/11 - 07:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 1ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: >0ppm, <5ppm, temp 84F.
Day 4: 5/03/11 - 20:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 0.5ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~3ppm, temp: 86F.
Day 5: 5/04/11 - 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0.5ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~3ppm, temp: 85F
Day 5: 5/04/11 - 17:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: <0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~3-4ppm, temp 83F redosed to 4ppm
Day 6: 5/05/11 - 07:00 - pH:N/A, NH3: 3-4ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~3ppm, temp 83F
Day 6: 5/05/11 - 19:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: ~3ppm, NO2: 0ppm (a little purple visible on the bottom), NO3: ~3ppm, temp 84F
Day 7: 5/06/11 - 07:00 - pH:N/A, NH3: 0.5ppm, NO2: <0.25ppm (more purple on the bottom of the vial), NO3: >5ppm, temp: 83F
Day 7: 5/06/11 - 19:00 - pH:N/A, NH3: 0-0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 40-80ppm, temp 84F. (Please read my mea culpa. I was not properly performing the nitrate test. Having fixed that problem, the nitrates are now going up at an alarming rate.) redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 8: 5/07/11 - 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 1.0-2.0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 40-80ppm, temp 83F
Day 8, 5/07/11 - 22:30 - pH: 8.2, NH3: 0-0.25ppm (closer to 0ppm), NO2: 0ppm, NO3: very close to 80ppm, temp: 85F redosed to 4ppm 22:00
Day 9, 5/08/11 - 07:00 - pH:8.4 , NH3: 025-0.50ppm, NO2: off the scale?, NO3: 80ppm, temp: 83F
Day 9, 5/08/11 - 19:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 0-0.25ppm, NO2: off the scale NO3: 20?ppm, temp: 85F redosed to 4ppm 21:00
Day 10, 5/09/11 - 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: off the scale, NO3: 10?ppm, temp 85F
Day 10, 5/09/11 - 19:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: >0ppm (just a trace), NO2: off the scale, NO3: not tested, temp: 85F ~95% water change
Post water change: pH: 7.6, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0.50ppm, NO3: 20ppm, temp: 86F ***added sodium bicarb to raise pH.***
Day 11, 5/10/11 - 07:00 - pH: 8.3, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 80F (need to adjust the heater!) redosed NH3 to 2ppm 07:00
Day 11, 5/10/11 - (12hr) - 20:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: <0.25ppm, NO2: 2.00ppm, NO3: 40ppm, temp 85F
Day 12, 5/11/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F redosed NH3 to ~3ppm
Day 12, 5/11/11 - (12hr) 19:30 - pH:N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F AFTER ONLY 12 HOURS!!!
Day 13, 5/12/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - redosed to 4ppm
Day 13, 5/12/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0.25ppm (maybe 0.50ppm), NO3: N/A, temp: 85F (NH3 and NO2 were zero at 21:30.)
Day 14, 5/13/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH:N/A, NH3:0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~60ppm (or thereabouts... maybe higher), temp 85F dosed to 4ppm
Day 14, 5/13/11 - (12hr) 20:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: <0.25ppm, NO3:N/A, temp 85F
Day 15, 5/14/11 - (24hr) 08:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2:0ppm, NO3:N/a, temp 85F redosed to 4ppm
Day 15, 5/14/11 - (12hr) 20:00 - pH: 8.2, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2:0.50ppm, NO3: ~80ppm, temp 85F
Day 16, 5/15/11 - (24hr) 07:30 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F
Day 16, 5/15/11 - (12hr) 20:30 - pH:N/A, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F
Day 17, 5/16/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F redosed to 4ppm NH3
Day 17, 5/16/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F
Day 18, 5/17/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F redosed to 4 ppm
Day 18, 5/17/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: 7.6, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: too high to read, temp 85F
Day 19, 5/18/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F redosed to 4 ppm
Day 19, 5/18/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 1-2ppm, NO2: 1.0ppm, NO2: N/A, temp 85F - after investigating, it has been decided that I overdosed the ammonia in the morning, closer to 6ppm than 4ppm.
(Major water change - 75-80% to lower nitrates for testing purposes. Post water change parameters: pH: 7.0 (redosed with baking soda), NH3: 0.50ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 40ppm, temp 88F)
Day 20, 5/19/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: 8.4, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 40ppm, temp 82F redosed to 4 ppm, really this time!
Day 20, 5/19/11 - (12hr) 21:00 - pH: 8.2, NH3: 0.5-0.75ppm, NO2: 1.0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F
Day 21, 5/20/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp: 84F redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 21, 5/20/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: ~8.3, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: ~2.0ppm, NO3: 40-80ppm, temp 84F
Day 22, 5/21/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3 :N/A, temp 84F redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 22, 5/21/11 - (~12hr) 20:30 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F
Day 23, 5/22/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 23, 5/22/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH:N/A, NH3:0ppm, NO2:0.10ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F (so close)


***Start of Qualifying week***
Day 24, 5/23/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - pH: 8.3, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 83F redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 24, 5/23/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F
Day 25, 5/24/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 25, 5/24/11 - (12hr) 19:00 - ph:N/A, NH3:0ppm, NO2:0ppm, NO3:N/A, temp 84F
Day 26, 5/25/11 - (24hr) 07:00 - redosed to 4ppm NH3.
Day 26, 5/25/11 - (12hr) 17:00 - pH: N/A, NH3:0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 84F (10 hours!!!)



I want to throw a thank you to all the folks who have been following along and offering help, encouragement and advice along the way! And a special thank you to waterdrop, OldMan47, TwoTankAmin, anon02, BigBadBarry, fluttermoth, and KISSfn. (Apologies if I missed anyone.)





*******************************
FISH-IN cycle continuation by "KISSfn" Had used Safe Start and Dr. Tim's previously to no avail.

Added Fritz Zyme "Turbo Start"

Observation: water clouded when added (Bacterial bloom?)

Mine is a continuation of a fish in cycle with 3 Tiger Barbs and 3 Green Barbs in a 50 gallon tank. Readings prior to adding Turbo Start were 1mg/l Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and PH 7.6.

Prereadings:
Ammonia: 1 mg/L, Nitrite: 0 mg/L, pH: 7.6, Temp: 75.4 F


Initial dose of 1.5 ounces Fritz Zyme Turbo Start 700 added to tank water directly.

24 hours later
Ammonia 1mg/l, Nitrite: , pH 7.6, Temp 75.3F
(No obvious need to test Nitrite.)

Label directions indicate up to 5x normal dose can be done to speed process. Added remaining 2.5 ounces to filter media directly (Eheim Ehfisubstrat Pro).

Day 2 - Ammonia 1mg/l, Nitrite 0, PH 7.6, Temp 75.7. Prime added to lessen toxicity of Ammonia.

Turbo Start Day 3 - Ammonia 2mg/l, Nitrite 0, PH 7.6, Temp 75.9. Did a 70% water change. Added Prime. Not looking good...

Turbo Start Day 4 - Ammonia 2mg/l, Temp 76.3. No need to waste reagents on any other parameters since Ammonia levels are not dropping at all but rising. If Turbo Start was in fact working Ammonia would drop. Since product claims to work in 5 days or less I will waste another test tomorrow on Ammonia levels. So far, in my opinion, Fritz Zyme's Turbo Start 700 can be added to my list of uselss products tried which include Tetra Safe Start and Dr. Tim's One and Only. Adding Prime in the interest of my fish.

Ok, so I am looking at starting a tank in the coming months, and I keep reading about how the bacterial additives "generally" don't work. But, I figure that there has to be some margin of success in decreasing the duration of a cycle, otherwise, they wouldn't keep being purchased.


So, here are the three that I have seen the most positive comments about:

• Fritz zyme's "Turbo Start" - a refrigerated product that is supposed to contain nitrobacter, not nitrospira, but they are both supposed to be good nitrifying bacteria.
• Tetra's "Safe Start" (formerly Biospira) - the new formula is no longer refrigerated, but is still supposed to contain nitrospira.
• Dr Tim's "One and Only" - this was developed, I believe, by the same scientist who was heavily involved in developing the original Bio-Spira formula. This is also not refrigerated, but it does state that the shelf-life of the product can be extended by refrigerating the product.

Just a couple of disclaimers - First, i do not work, nor do I own any stock in any of these companies. Second, I am not looking for a "miracle" product, just a product that could reduce the cycling duration (50% shorter would be nice - to a total of 3 weeks).


Does anyone have a success story to share with any of these products? Does using any of these products actually harm the cycling process?

Turbo Start has "testimonials" that state that it started to process ammonia into nitrites in as few as 36 hours, and nitrites into nitrates in as few as 5-6 days. Call me a skeptic, but if that is the case, why don't more people on this board use it? But, at the same time, it is still on the market, so if it doesn't work, why is it still around?

Safe Start is an "improved" formula of a product that I have seen people on here actually laud. If it worked before, and they "improved" it, wouldn't it be at least as effective as the "old" formula?

Dr. Tim is supposed to be a pioneer in the nitrifying bacteria for the home aquarium. If he is selling a product, shouldn't it work? Or is he just trying to make a quick buck, and ruin is reputation in the process?



I guess it doesn't cost anything but time to cycle without any additives, but if I can cut that time in half - and the amount of testing solutions I have to use - by buying an additive, then I think that it is a worthwhile investment. To be completely honest, as interesting as the entire nitrogen cycle is, my goal in having an aquarium is about keeping fish happy and healthy, not looking at an empty tank and reading a bunch of test tube results. The sooner I can achieve that goal, the better. If I have to wait 6-9 weeks, then so be it. But, if I can cut that down by spending a few extra dollars, then I am happy to do that! (I guess my issue is that I want to have fish NOW, but due to my travel schedule this summer, I really can't even purchase the tank I am looking at until August, and won't be able to start the cycling until September!)

 

[Randi]

My experience (with Nutrafin Cycle) is that it did work. My tank cycled in 12 days. However, once I decided to stop adding it weekly my tank went into another cycle. I don't think it is the same kind of bacteria.
I have heard great things about bio-spira but they have stopped making it for freshwater tanks. If Dr. Tim's is the same thing it may very well work but after my personal experience I am skeptical. If the instructions say you must continue to add it weekly, I wouldn't bother.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Dr. Tim's says that you have to add it ONCE - hence the name "One and Only". BUT they all say that they can be added during water changes... which makes me a bit more skeptical.

Dr. Tim's states that fish can be added IMMEDIATELY after use. And doesn't mention anything about doing a "fish-in" cycle.

 

[algir]

I have used Tetra Safe Start to cycle my tank. However, I must warn you because it is "live bacteria" it does have a shelf life, whether the bottle says so or not. I purchased 1 bottle from Petsmart that did nothing, which I can only assume was because the bacteria had died. I purchased another at a LFS, and my tank was cycled within 2 weeks. I will add, however, that I did overdose my tank with the Safe Start. I used 30 gallons worth for a 10 gallon. Best of luck to you!

My experience (with Nutrafin Cycle) is that it did work. My tank cycled in 12 days. However, once I decided to stop adding it weekly my tank went into another cycle. I don't think it is the same kind of bacteria.
I have heard great things about bio-spira but they have stopped making it for freshwater tanks. If Dr. Tim's is the same thing it may very well work but after my personal experience I am skeptical. If the instructions say you must continue to add it weekly, I wouldn't bother.

Randi,

Bio-Spira is Tetra Safe Start now. The only difference (so I've heard) is that Safe Start does not require refrigeration to keep the bacteria alive.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have used Tetra Safe Start to cycle my tank. However, I must warn you because it is "live bacteria" it does have a shelf life, whether the bottle says so or not. I purchased 1 bottle from Petsmart that did nothing, which I can only assume was because the bacteria had died. I purchased another at a LFS, and my tank was cycled within 2 weeks. I will add, however, that I did overdose my tank with the Safe Start. I used 30 gallons worth for a 10 gallon. Best of luck to you!

Well, they do say that you can't truly "overdose". I plan to use double the recommended dose for my tank when I get it, as well.

How long ago was that? Were there any mini-cycle episodes after that? How many fish is the bioload?


Thanks for the feedback!

 

[algir]

I have used Tetra Safe Start to cycle my tank. However, I must warn you because it is "live bacteria" it does have a shelf life, whether the bottle says so or not. I purchased 1 bottle from Petsmart that did nothing, which I can only assume was because the bacteria had died. I purchased another at a LFS, and my tank was cycled within 2 weeks. I will add, however, that I did overdose my tank with the Safe Start. I used 30 gallons worth for a 10 gallon. Best of luck to you!

Well, they do say that you can't truly "overdose". I plan to use double the recommended dose for my tank when I get it, as well.

How long ago was that? Were there any mini-cycle episodes after that? How many fish is the bioload?


Thanks for the feedback!

I added the Safe Start about a month ago. My tank has been cycled for 2 weeks with no mini-cycles as of yet. I have 2 Cory Cats in my tank all of which were added carefully/slowly as to not overwhelm the bio-load. My WP are always very stable. Good luck!

 

[anon02]

I have an idea that might appeal, seeing that you have so much time on your hands, you could cycle a filter in a bucket of water adding a few drops of ammonia daily, by the time you are ready to buy your tank you will have a cycled filter

 

[Gelt]

My filter start went straight in the bin.....came with the tank but after reading the valued advice on these forums regarding bottled bacteria i decided against it.

No doubt you will see a huge informative post from Waterdrop on this subject soon!

The only way to tell is to look at the product under a microscope to see if any are actually still alive, also i do not know the stats for any mini-cycles developing after the use of these so called ' instant cycle aids' so i won't comment.

I think its down to the individual aquarist, reading and researching the product and indeed any science papers you can get your hands on. My guess is once used dependancy will remain high (if worked at all) and any break in this will force your bacteria to do something it does'nt want to do or even go dormant. We are trying to maintain and circulate our water via biofilter providing the best possible means for growth and establishment of the required type of bacteria quite simply the A-Bacs and N-Bacs this takes time and careful chemistry , i think that the way bacteria is cultured during a fishless cycle provides strong bacteria capable of sustaining your livestock and not subjecting them to harsh toxins- do you take the risk at the expense of your fishes health.....'the choice is yours' as they say

This is my take on it and i find the topic most interesting.
a nice link summary here Bacteria Bottles Do they work?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have an idea that might appeal, seeing that you have so much time on your hands, you could cycle a filter in a bucket of water adding a few drops of ammonia daily, by the time you are ready to buy your tank you will have a cycled filter

That was a very interesting thought, but I will be out of town for the majority of the summer, which would pretty much nullify my ability to use that method. If I were around, I would be able to set up the tank earlier and cycle it the regular way. My schedule is the issue, not the availability of the tank. I will be away for 5 consecutive weeks in July-August, then for two more weeks in August. I figure any cycling that happens in the tank prior to that last trip would be lost by the time I get back! I suppose I could bring the bucket, filter and ammonia with me, but I don't believe that it would be that convenient.

My filter start went straight in the bin.....came with the tank but after reading the valued advice on these forums regarding bottled bacteria i decided against it.

No doubt you will see a huge informative post from Waterdrop on this subject soon!

I can't wait for that. I do enjoy reading his posts on a wide variety of subjects...

The only way to tell is to look at the product under a microscope to see if any are actually still alive, also i do not know the stats for any mini-cycles developing after the use of these so called ' instant cycle aids' so i won't comment.

I think its down to the individual aquarist, reading and researching the product and indeed any science papers you can get your hands on. My guess is once used dependancy will remain high (if worked at all) and any break in this will force your bacteria to do something it does'nt want to do or even go dormant. We are trying to maintain and circulate our water via biofilter providing the best possible means for growth and establishment of the required type of bacteria quite simply the A-Bacs and N-Bacs this takes time and careful chemistry , i think that the way bacteria is cultured during a fishless cycle provides strong bacteria capable of sustaining your livestock and not subjecting them to harsh toxins- do you take the risk at the expense of your fishes health.....'the choice is yours' as they say

This is my take on it and i find the topic most interesting.
a nice link summary here Bacteria Bottles Do they work?

Well, I did run across an article that is supposed to have come from the University of California on a range of different products, including Turbo Start. Sounds great, right? But, the website for this article was only found on fritzpets.com (the maker of Turbo Start!).


I guess if these options don't work out, I still have the planted tank starting option! I will just need to be more diligent in testing and being ready to do a water change at a moments notice. But, if I get enough of the right plants at the beginning, it should be fine too. I figure that using the plants as the primary form of filtration of ammonia and nitrites would be a little more complicated though...

 

[drobbyb]

Better than any bottled bacteria is media out of a healthy cycled tank added to your filter. This will cycle you quickly and safely without any risk to your fish or your wallet. Using donated media can cut your cycle in half.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Better than any bottled bacteria is media out of a healthy cycled tank added to your filter. This will cycle you quickly and safely without any risk to your fish or your wallet. Using donated media can cut your cycle in half.

Yes, I am aware of that, but in lieu of that...

 

[KISSfn]

I tried Tetra Safe Start. It did NOT do a thing. I added Dr. Tim's One and Only two days ago. The ad claims it starts working in 24 hours. So far I have seen NO results.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I tried Tetra Safe Start. It did NOT do a thing. I added Dr. Tim's One and Only two days ago. The ad claims it starts working in 24 hours. So far I have seen NO results.

Are you doing a fishless cycle with it? How are you measuring your results?

 

[Caprichoso]

I have always used Cycle and more recently, Seachem Stability. I have always added fish within the week. I've never had an ammonia spike or fish loss from new tank syndrome. I always test the water. I use the products for the first week or so, then stop. No issues. I didn't look under a microscope to see if the bacteria was alive, I've never looked at the expiry date, I don't do anything special. So either the products work or I've had a horseshoe "up there" for the last 15+ years, lol.

 

[waterdrop]

Actually, historically, fishless vs. fish-in is one of the things that usually complicates our discussions about bottled bacteria starters. As a hobbyist fascinated with the Fishless Cycling concept, it's always been disappointing to me not to see more threads/reports where the bottled starters have been dosed at the beginning of a standard household ammonia controlled non-mature-media fishless cycle with full daily logging etc. In my own case, this would greatly help me get perspective on whether the BB is doing anything we can detect and have some crude measure over. Each individual case where that was done would still only represent one data point in our experience overall (since fishless cycles themselves vary wildly in time) but at least we'd be getting a data point.

What more commonly happens is that the BB providers are more familiar with Fish-In cycles and give those sort of instructions and the client worries that not following those guidelines somehow might keep the BB from being effective. Or, put another way, it's usually just the usual thing of "that's the only cycle I'm going to do and if it's going to speed things up then I want to get fish and be done with it." It just would be very rare to run across an actual "experimenter" rather than a "customer." To my mind, fish-in cycles are just so much less "transparent" in experimental terms. There is lots more water changing, usually effectively hiding almost all ability to "see" repeated ammonia and nitrite measurements and get a feel for actual progress. Likewise, the ammonia sourcing is not measured and is much smaller usually, which also hides feedback, so mostly on the forum if we end up hearing anything at all from the BB experimenter in the end, it's more of a "terrible" or "great," instead of the kind of "gee, it only took about 30 days instead of 70 days" that would feel more like real data.

Or maybe a different way to describe it is that if the BB is really seeding your new filter with enough of the correct two species then if you fishless cycle it, those bacteria should be able to almost immediately drop 3-4ppm ammonia concentration within 12 hours of dosing the ammonia to zero ppm ammonia and zero ppm nitrite(NO2) readings on a daily basis for a week. If you only ever fish-in cycle with a proper low fish-in bioload then it is next to impossible to differentiate the BB fish-in cycle from the plain fish-in cycle. In either, you might easily get plenty of zero readings because the bioload is low and the mini-spike patterns might be less seen (but unfortunately still causing the usual non-symptomatic gill and nerve damage.)

If anything, as an actual experimenter I'm worse than some of the more ambitious people we've had who at least -claimed- they were going to try some real experiments. I already know my family and work life is too busy (although I hold out hope that I'll reach a stretch of not needing fish in my quarantine tank and I might then actually try a "from scratch" experiement or two (but don't hold your breath ) (and I think we're still hoping KK might try a few if I remember right guys?? )

~~waterdrop~~