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Arrrggghhhh What's Cycling, New Tank And I've Already Got Fish

Its a personal choice, do you want to own fish, or care for fish ?

We must write out 100 times, "I must not subject fish-in posters to boiling oil" !!!!! LOL :lol:

I think anyone worth their salt must go the fish-less way...
 
miss wriggle is officially my hero

thankyou for all your wonderful knowledge and sharing it with us all
 
Its a personal choice, do you want to own fish, or care for fish ?

Great post Rooster! Too many people don't bother to make that distiction, and unfortunately just 'own fish'.
 
Wow...tons of posts on here...sorry if this has already been answered, but i havent found it on this topic. I have zero experience with fish, and the fish in question are goldfish not tropical fish (since that will pry matter due to amount of waste, i assume). The 2 fish have been in the tank (5 gal, which i thought was more than large enough before actually researching...and yes I will be starting a new larger tank for them VERY soon) for 1 week now and are proving very difficult (although fun) to keep healthy/happy. After getting most of my other problems out of the way, the tank began to smell extremely bad. It is also developing bubbles that tend to not go away (without about 25% water change). Also a white cloudy appearance to water that does not go away with water changes, cleaning or anything. Ive gotten my PH and everything else on the test strip in line, but my nitrites and nitrates remain at zero. This is when I learned about "cycling". Of course the strips i got do not test for ammonia, so i need to go back to the store to get some new ones. But I'm assuming the horrible smell and the bubbles are due to ammonia since everything else seems fine. I purchased some stuff to decrease ammonia levels in the tank (fearing it would kill fish) and it got rid of the smell. And now im finding out that's the opposite of what i want in a new tank. So now im thinking ive been killing off the bacteria's food source and in turn retarding the growth of the bacteria. So my questions basically are, am i correct about all my assumptions ive made so far? And if so, how long do i have to deal with the bubbles/bad smell from the ammonia levels before the bacteria reach a level that can eat away the ammonia? I believe I read something like 30-40 days for complete nitrogen cycle...but how long to get past the smelly cloudy water stage? ( If that is indeed my problem).

Thankyou
 
Ok, going to break things up: The smell is ammonia - a tank in a cycle smells almost rank. A mature tank will have an earthy smell that some people find unpleasant, but I personally don't mind. The bubbles are probably an oily protein film. Some foods cause this worse than others, and water changes will generally serve to remove it, and surface movement from filtration will help to break it up (but can cause the bubbles instead of just a smooth film). Marine and strong brackish tanks have special filtration to deal with it, but in freshwater tanks, water changes are the only option.

The white clouding is a bacterial bloom, probably due to ammonia levels. It's not the good filter bacteria, but bacteria that are normally present in the tank performing other functions like breaking down fish poop. In some conditions they will begin using ammonia. They're not as effective as filter bacteria. The bloom itself is harmless, but is usually indicative of problems that aren't harmless. These bacteria reproduce MUCH faster than the filter bacteria, so even very large water changes will only make a temporary improvement - a 50% might only buy you 20 minutes of slightly clearer water.

The water will always have a smell, but after 2-3 weeks when the ammonia portion of the cycle finally settles down, the smell will change, and after the cycle it'll change further and will smell something like rich soil. Depending on the size of the goldfish and strength of the filter, in a small tank this might actually never happen, as a weak filter won't be able to keep up reasonably sized goldfish. The bubbles might be a permanent problem, but overfeeding can contribute to it, so ensure the fish are finishing all their food within 2-3 minutes and that excess isn't left in the tank.

What ammonia removing product did you buy? Zeolite filter media is a very efficient ammonia remover, but it will starve bacteria out and when it depletes, ammonia could spike, with deadly results, meaning you either need to remove it and begin a cycle, or continue using it forever (which likely won't be cheap). If it was an additive like Ammo-Lock, it may not have actually remove the ammonia, but just converted it to ammonium, which is less toxic, and the bacteria will like it just as much.

The best solutions to all your problems are daily (or more - ammonia and nitrIte should never be allowed to remain over 0.25 ppm) water changes, which is also the way to get fish through a cycle without serious damage. I'd get at least a 20, preferably 30 or even 40 gallon tank ASAP.

Until then, do as many water changes as necessary to keep ammonia and nitrite under .25. When the new tank is set up, fill it with new water and move the media out of the current filter into the new one (This is where most of your bacteria live), and then continue water changes as before until the cycle finishes.


Edit: Also, feel free to start your own thread - it'll tend to get more attention than posting in a reference thread like this one.
 
The stuff i used to lower ammonia levels was Jungle Brand "ACE" (Ammonia Chlorine Eliminator). I too am from mid-michigan (Lansing area). Where do you recommend I go around here to start my new larger tank? Pet store like PetCO, or is there a more specific "fish" store around here you like? Also what do you think would be safer for the fish since they are already in the small tank? Keeping them in the small tank that has already been going for a week (hopefully started to cycle at least) until the new larger tank (not purchased yet) has done a complete "fishless" cycle. Or since the small tank is so small and its only been going for 1 week should I just transfer the fish to the larger tank as soon as it is set up, and let it cycle "naturally"?
 
The stuff i used to lower ammonia levels was Jungle Brand "ACE" (Ammonia Chlorine Eliminator). I too am from mid-michigan (Lansing area). Where do you recommend I go around here to start my new larger tank? Pet store like PetCO, or is there a more specific "fish" store around here you like? Also what do you think would be safer for the fish since they are already in the small tank? Keeping them in the small tank that has already been going for a week (hopefully started to cycle at least) until the new larger tank (not purchased yet) has done a complete "fishless" cycle. Or since the small tank is so small and its only been going for 1 week should I just transfer the fish to the larger tank as soon as it is set up, and let it cycle "naturally"?

If you're in Lansing, Preuss Pets is pretty popular, though I haven't been there yet, I've seen the website and the place is absolutely huge. I'm in the Saginaw area, and I'm only familiar with the tri-counties. I avoid PetCo and PetSmart for most fish, but there's a couple dedicated fish stores I avoid even more, so there's no set rules.

When you get the new tank, you can move the existing filter to the new tank, or the filter media to the new filter. This will keep the biofilter you've already built up and greatly speed or possibly bypass the cycle for the new tank.

It's a bit of a drive from Lansing to Saginaw, and I'm not on the list for regular donors, but I can help you with some mature media. I just transfered some a couple weeks ago for a friend, so I can't give you as much as I usually would, but it should work for the current tank. PM me if you're interested.
 
Yes, Lansing area. I'll check out Preuss, I've heard of it before. As for the filter and the media (again...<----complete fish no0b), Im not sure exactly whats up with the filtration system. Not sure exactly how "Under gravel filtration" works, but from what I can gather it is basically a place for the bacteria to grow. That being the case I'm not sure how I'd transfer the bottom of a 5 gal tank into a 60 gal aquarium. And I believe "media" refers to the gravel? That being the case my kids helped pick everything out for their fish. So I currently have rainbow colored gravel (I believe its turning my air hose pink). I still want them to be involved and help pick everything out, but if I'm gunna go all out ($) to try to make these fish happy and healthy, I don't really want to have a 60 gal aquarium filled with rainbow gravel :) . So I think I'm going to have to recycle a new tank. Maybe I'd be able to "bury" the rainbow gravel in the new gravel??? I'd assume over time it would surface and look pretty messed up tho. Lastly, is there a certain brand/brands I should look for for the tank/filter/supplies? Also is there a certain "top brand" for chemicals etc?
 
What ammonia removing product did you buy? Zeolite filter media is a very efficient ammonia remover, but it will starve bacteria out and when it depletes, ammonia could spike, with deadly results, meaning you either need to remove it and begin a cycle, or continue using it forever (which likely won't be cheap). If it was an additive like Ammo-Lock, it may not have actually remove the ammonia, but just converted it to ammonium, which is less toxic, and the bacteria will like it just as much.

Is this from personal experience? I use Zeolite as a means of fighting algae in imature tanks. Once it is depleted, I still leave it in for a bacteria colony to move in and consume the ammonia. I have never seen any evidence of an ammonia spike.

Dave.
 
Personal experience and supporting testimony from others on the forum - I use it in quarantine tanks at the first sign of ammonia. The best way to control algae in an immature tank is plants - it's been almost a year, and except a bit of brown algae 3 months in, I've only just started getting green hair algae in my planted community, and even that's just barely hanging on in a corner between some rocks. Not suitable with all fish, but it's a silver bullet where it does work.

Yes, Lansing area. I'll check out Preuss, I've heard of it before. As for the filter and the media (again...<----complete fish no0b), Im not sure exactly whats up with the filtration system. Not sure exactly how "Under gravel filtration" works, but from what I can gather it is basically a place for the bacteria to grow. That being the case I'm not sure how I'd transfer the bottom of a 5 gal tank into a 60 gal aquarium. And I believe "media" refers to the gravel? That being the case my kids helped pick everything out for their fish. So I currently have rainbow colored gravel (I believe its turning my air hose pink). I still want them to be involved and help pick everything out, but if I'm gunna go all out ($) to try to make these fish happy and healthy, I don't really want to have a 60 gal aquarium filled with rainbow gravel smile.gif . So I think I'm going to have to recycle a new tank. Maybe I'd be able to "bury" the rainbow gravel in the new gravel??? I'd assume over time it would surface and look pretty messed up tho. Lastly, is there a certain brand/brands I should look for for the tank/filter/supplies? Also is there a certain "top brand" for chemicals etc?

Media is where the bacteria grow. For an undergravel filter, yes, the bacteria will grow in the gravel. They've fallen into disuse, as they're difficult to clean and maintain, requiring the tank to be almost completely torn down to fix any problems. Unfortunately, I don't have any tanks with them, so there's not much I can do for you as far as mature media. Transfering media from the 5 to the 60, if you use another undergravel, you can just spread the old gravel over the filter plate and then lay new gravel over it, but it'll get mixed in eventually with gravel vacs and regular water changes. It won't make the fish unhappy, but urgh - my aunt has a 75 gallon with that stuff and glow-in-th-dark fake plants and the thing burns your retinas.

If you use a different type of filter (I'd suggest a canister for a 60, though you can use two of the big hanging filters - don't trust the volume hanging filters say they handle), you can put the gravel in a filter bag inside that, or at that point you can get mature media from an established tank like mine.

For the tank, there really isn't a best brand, they're all just big glass boxes. For filters, around here the best ones I can get are Marineland and Fluval canisters. If you go with hanging filters, aquaclear, aquatech, and cascade are all good, and I've seen some interesting Rena hanging filters that have a large media capacity, but I have no experience with those. Biowheels are popular and come recommended, but if Lansing is also serviced by Consumer's Energy, I wouldn't use one. When the power goes out, the biowheel stops turning, potentially drying out your bacteria.

For heaters, there's only one brand sold around here, and that's Topfin, but if you can find a different brand try them - I've had to return more Topfin heaters than I've actually put into use - most of the ones I bought would heat the water to 90 on their lowest setting. Chemicals, there's only one you need for regular use, and that's a water conditioner. Seachem Prime is one of the best recommended, but it isn't sold in the Tri-cities. I use Weco Dechlor. It's a pond product, but dirt cheap and it works. A $4 bottle will treat 2000 gallons of water, which is well over a year's worth of water changes for me. Just need it to remove chlorine and maybe ammonia if you get a positive ammonia reading from your tap. There's some that say they have stress reducing agents, biological additives, and all sorts of other crap - I'd stay away from them. The great thing about Prime and similar products that just do what you need is that it's safe to overdose within reason. When in doubt, you can just add another dose and make sure. I've read that some of the more complex water conditioners become dangerous if you overdose this way.

Incidentally, a friend of mine has rainbow gravel, and her air hose also turned pink. I never thought it could have been related to the gravel.
 
Personal experience and supporting testimony from others on the forum - I use it in quarantine tanks at the first sign of ammonia. The best way to control algae in an immature tank is plants - it's been almost a year, and except a bit of brown algae 3 months in, I've only just started getting green hair algae in my planted community, and even that's just barely hanging on in a corner between some rocks. Not suitable with all fish, but it's a silver bullet where it does work.

Fair enough.

I run high tech planted tanks that start off full of fast growers such as Rotala sp but still find Zeolite a potent weapon, without an ammonia spike. It is becoming more and more popular in the planted side of things. I`ve never heard of the spike until now from any of the planted forums I frequent.

The best way to control algae in an immature tank, as in any tank for that matter, is with light.

Dave.
 
The plants probably absorb a possible ammonia spike. It's possible with enough plants to cycle with fish and never get an ammonia reading. A well planted tank, high tech or not, can absorb a good bit of excess ammonia.
 
Thankyou Miss Wiggle. As a newby, I'm finding your posts very useful indeed and thankyou for putting so much detail and effort into them. :thanks:
 
Okaaaaay...

But what about this?

Say someone got a cruddy subgravel bio filter completely cycled and supporting the tank, but he hates it cause of the gunk under it.

So he tries to get an external filter instead.

He has to run both at once, and he can't fishless cycle the tank cause he already fully stocked it.

What would someone do then?
 

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