Are we being conned?

[Lynnzer]

In my ongoing arrangments to set up my first marine tank, I'm trying to put together most of the things I'm going to need.
I've got an order placed for some items such as the black perspex for making the in-tank filtration system, and am looking at water test kits.
I use the NT Labs kits for my freshwater and I see they also make a marine test kit. However when looking at it, it appears to be some sort of a con job to the alert consumer. The bottles all have the same chemical contents as in the frehwater kit, ie, for ammonia it's the same 3 bottles showing NH3-1, NH3-2,NH3-3, and the same for nitrate, nitrite and pH being the same as freshwater. There's no GH or KH.
On Amazon the freshwater kit is at 27.99 and the marine is at £26.99.
So we have 2 tests less on the marine and a higher price.
Are we being conned? Surely NH3-1 is the same chemical whatever the intended use and similarly for the other bottles?

 

[Colin_T]

You don't normally bother with GH and KH in marine tanks because sea water is pretty much the same all around the world, with a few exceptions like the dead sea.

I think @PheonixKingZ went through something similar when he was setting up a marine tank and tried different test kits. I can't remember what he ended up using for test kits.

Having a home made filter in the tank is more work than you need. I would have stayed with the external power filter.

 

[Lynnzer]

You don't normally bother with GH and KH in marine tanks because sea water is pretty much the same all around the world, with a few exceptions like the dead sea.

I think @PheonixKingZ went through something similar when he was setting up a marine tank and tried different test kits. I can't remember what he ended up using for test kits.

Having a home made filter in the tank is more work than you need. I would have stayed with the external power filter.

One of the reasons for an internal filtration system is that this is a pretty large tank for a start-up, by my thoughts anyway. By shortening the length it will be easier to landscape without spending an absolute fortune. I really want an impressive looking tank and just plonking a few bits of rock in a large tank just wouldn't cut it for me.

Googling NH3 brings up the chemical structure which basically is just ammonia. I can't find anything that refers to the -1, -2 or -3 though.
However it seems to me that if a product is called NH3-3 it must be the same across the board. It seems to me that this is akin to people thinking that Ibuprofen bought from a high street chemist at 5 times the price of the same product from a supermarket must be better. It's all the same.
If @PheonixKingZ is online perhaps he can share his own findings, or maybe we have a chemistry expert on forum.

 

[Essjay]

NT Labs don't say what's in their testers, but API do give links to the safety data sheets on their website. The API ammonia test has two bottles, and the safety data sheets show the same ingredients in both bottles for fresh and marine. This does not prove that NT Labs ammonia testers are the same but it is suggestive.

I haven't checked the rest, but it's easy to go to API's site and download the Safety Data Sheets and look through them to find what's in the product.

 

[Lynnzer]

I'm going to email them again and give them a supposedly legitimate question they'll be pressed to answer.
"Please could you help me. I have been testing my new marine tank with your NT Labs test kit without realising it was for freshwater only.
I'm deeply concerned that I may have been guilty of putting the lives of my very expensive tank inhabitants to a very dangerous risk. That includes not only fish but coral, anemones etc.
I wasn't aware that there was a difference in the chemical constituents in the Ammonia and Nitrate test bottles and of course these are the most essential tests that need to be carried out.
I'm still testing daily and carrying out water changes to stabilise the water parameters so would appreciate your confirmation that there's no difference in the chemical makeup"
Let's see if this elicits a response.

 

[Rocky998]

Yah that would be an amazing find... I wonder if it's the same with the API tests...Cause a saltwater API test can reach up to 60-70 while a freshwater one is 30-50

 

[Essjay]

According to API's website, their ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests have the same upper limit for fresh and marine.

Cause a saltwater API test can reach up to 60-70 while a freshwater one is 30-50

Which test is that?

 

[Rocky998]

According to API's website, their ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests have the same upper limit for fresh and marine.

What do mean by "same upper limit"? Do you mean with the price?

Which test is that

The API salt and freshwater master test kits

 

[Essjay]

I misunderstood

I didn't realise you were talking about the price, I though you meant the ranges on the testers

 

[Rocky998]

I misunderstood

I didn't realise you were talking about the price, I though you meant the ranges on the testers

Lol it's fine
I get things mixed up in my head all the time. I have no right to complain.

Although that is a good idea to check the range on the test kits for each!
I know there are color code differences with the charts

 

[Lynnzer]

My main consideration is to see if the test kit liquids are the same freshwater to marine. If so the it can't be anything else but a con. If it's labelled Marine and there's no difference it also breaches the trade description act I think.
I can't remember exactly but I did read that Australia came down heavily on some similar scam. I think it was for some sort of chemical formula, perhaps shampoo or medicine or something that was being sold in different bottles labelled differently, ie instead of showing as Super, it was labelled as Super Plus but was exactly the same as the Super. Something like that anyway. It was a quite well known company as well and I think they got fined heavily for it.
Perhaps one of our Aussie members can recall the incident.

 

[Lynnzer]

Well here's their response.
We would always recommend using the marine test kit, as they are buffered and calibrated differently to the freshwater test kit, although the results will be similar, so should give you enough of an idea as to the quality of your water. I would highly recommend purchasing a Marine Lab multi test kit so you can be sure of the parameters.

So here's the thing. I have tested the saltwater I collected and have in my tank to make live rock. The Ammonia coloration comes up as being bright blue on their chart, the nitrate and nitrite are so marginally coloured as to be neutral.
I wondered if the high ammonia level was because of the rocks that had been put in the tank so I went back to the coast and got a fresh sample of seawater. It tested only slightly better for ammonia, still at a lighter blue and the nitrate/nitrite levels are the same the same.
I can't believe that fresh seawater would have ammonia in it so there seems to be some merit on what NT Labs say.
I still find it obfuscative of them to not go into actual comparisons with a direct relationship, one to the other.
I'll try again.

Thanks Leah.
However I'm not sure if I need an extra kit. The cost is high when I'm stocking with marine stuff.
Are there really any differences between the freshwater and marine kits. I mean ACTUAL chemical make-up or strength. I'm not interested in what the chemical constituents are, just whether there's any real difference.
I'm being especially careful in both directions, i.e. cost and safety.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

Take a sample of seawater close to a sewage outlet....

 

[Lynnzer]

Take a sample of seawater close to a sewage outlet....

Like,,,, Hell no.
Apart from the fact that I ain't gonna dip my hand into that stuff, it isn't what the local coastline has where I collected the sample.
I do think, though, that if there is a high level of ammonia in the local area sea, then there'd be a mass die out of fish. There was a recent such event further down the coast a few months ago with a huge kill of lobsters and crabs, but the water was obviously tested and found no suspiciously high toxic elements. The tide wouldn't come northwards from the region that was affected. It swept down the coastline away from my local area.
It seems that the ammonia test in the NT Labs kit for freshwater against that in the marine kit may well have some differences. There are 3 tubes for doing the ammonia test so it could be one or more of them have some difference.

 

[Donya]

I wondered if the high ammonia level was because of the rocks that had been put in the tank so I went back to the coast and got a fresh sample of seawater. It tested only slightly better for ammonia, still at a lighter blue and the nitrate/nitrite levels are the same the same.

If you were collecting in a shallow area and not testing on-site, I wouldn't necessarily expect water in a tidal zone to be pristine. Water samples I collected from the New England coast a long time ago showed ammonia pretty often and even sometimes had a big nitrite spike due to plankton and other microorganism die-off during a short drive home.