Are these Cardinal tetras okay?

[BeckyCats]

In North America, cardinals will usually be wild caught. In Europe, I believe they have tank-raised fish from the Czech Republic and perhaps other places now, but I know the Czech were breeding cardinals a decade or so ago. I have rarely seen "tank-raised cardinals" advertised locally, so I assume most here (in NA) are wild.

Now, on the matter of wild caught fish, this is a concern many share, that we may be depleting wild stocks by over collecting. And while this is likely to have occurred with a very few species, it really is not significant in most cases. Destruction of the natural habitats is progressing alarmingly rapidly in some areas, particularly in SE Asia more than in South America. And this is a far greater disaster for the fish. There are most assuredly fish species that will be extinct before we have ever discovered them.

Most countries in SA have laws regarding the time of year when specific species can be collected, and if these are followed, the species should not be threatened. Aside from this, there is also the Project Piaba. This has been operating for several years now, and the idea behind it is that the resident peoples can make a decent living collecting ornamental fish, and this means they will not be cutting down the forest for agriculture. All this destruction of the rainforest is a very serious problem, and providing economic stability to the people while preserving the environment is well worth it. And not surprisingly, the locals know how many fish they can catch without depleting the species, and since it is their livlihood for many years to come, they are careful to be environmentally sound, Of course, if no one buys their fish, the idea will soon peter out, so there is a good reason to acquire wild caught fish.

Here's more on the Project Piaba:
http://projectpiaba.org/

My concern is more for the individual fish than for the environment (although, of course I do care about the environmental impact as well). In the organization you link to above, I like the way they seem to raise the fish in nets in the river. It would be less traumatic for the fish to be netted if they live in an enclosure versus being scooped up from the pure wild. As long as they aren't treating the fish with antibiotics or other medicines that get into the environment like farm raised salmon that are kept in ocean pens.

When the tank lights come on, I have to do another inspection for bodies to see if any died in the night. I have to take at least 7 dead ones back this morning. Ugh.

 

[BeckyCats]

Before answering, a comment on the fish problem...I didn't mention this previously because it was a done deal, but I always leave new fish arrivals in the store for at least one week. I prefer the fish die in the store than in my tanks,if anything is amiss. It is true that many fish, especially these sensitive soft water species, will make it through the capture/travel but are so weakened they die when they get to their destination. [One of my best local stores gives a refund/replacement guarantee for 30 days on fish, but there is a sign that this never applies to cardinals.] Assuming these cardinals were wild caught, acclimation has to be thorough.

Byron.

I brought in 8 more dead ones this morning. I spoke to one of the managers and he was super nice about the whole thing. I was afraid that they might blame me for all this, but he assured me that sometimes it just happens that they can get in a batch that doesn't do very well. I brought in another water sample from the tank and showed him a video of the whole tank (so he could see how everyone is interacting with each other, etc.). He assured me that my water is fine and I haven't done anything wrong. The return policy is for 2 weeks. He even refunded me for the 3 that just disappeared (I couldn't bring the bodies to prove they died but he believed me anyway). I didn't ask for those to be refunded, he just did so anyway. I think that was very nice. It is a dreadful situation to have all these fish dying but it is good to know that some places still have good customer service.

There are only 5 left. The lfs manager suggested that if I got a few more from a different store that currently has them, that the remaining 5 might feel more comfortable and less stressed and perhaps be less likely to die. They are getting in another shipment, but it won't be until Thursday, and I'm not buying ANY until at least the Thursday after that! So, what do you think? Should I go to a different store and pick up some healthy ones to make these poor little remaining 5 feel safer? Or would that just endanger the new ones? And then, what if even more die? Should I beef up their numbers then?

As always, thank you for your opinions!

 

[Byron]

I brought in 8 more dead ones this morning. I spoke to one of the managers and he was super nice about the whole thing. I was afraid that they might blame me for all this, but he assured me that sometimes it just happens that they can get in a batch that doesn't do very well. I brought in another water sample from the tank and showed him a video of the whole tank (so he could see how everyone is interacting with each other, etc.). He assured me that my water is fine and I haven't done anything wrong. The return policy is for 2 weeks. He even refunded me for the 3 that just disappeared (I couldn't bring the bodies to prove they died but he believed me anyway). I didn't ask for those to be refunded, he just did so anyway. I think that was very nice. It is a dreadful situation to have all these fish dying but it is good to know that some places still have good customer service.

There are only 5 left. The lfs manager suggested that if I got a few more from a different store that currently has them, that the remaining 5 might feel more comfortable and less stressed and perhaps be less likely to die. They are getting in another shipment, but it won't be until Thursday, and I'm not buying ANY until at least the Thursday after that! So, what do you think? Should I go to a different store and pick up some healthy ones to make these poor little remaining 5 feel safer? Or would that just endanger the new ones? And then, what if even more die? Should I beef up their numbers then?

As always, thank you for your opinions!

I suppose I would wait for the fish from the store you are dealing with now. You don't know if the remaining five cardinals you have will die or not, and while the store's point is very well taken, there is always the risk of disease from the fish at the other store. I don't know the other store, and I mentioned in an earlier post about all the fish from one of my local stores seeming to carry disease, so that in itself is a real risk. We can say that your five are probably still stressed at the very least, and stressed fish exposed to some pathogen or protozoan from other fish might not be able to fight it off and die from that. I have no problem putting different fish from the same store purchased at the same time into my QT together, but I do not like putting fish from different stores together in the QT. The stress of just netting the fish and bringing them home is significant and stress weakens the immune system so it is best not to add to the stress. The other thing is that this store seems reliable and knowledgeable and I think it best to give such stores one's business so they know you appreciate it.

Byron.

 

[BeckyCats]

I suppose I would wait for the fish from the store you are dealing with now. You don't know if the remaining five cardinals you have will die or not, and while the store's point is very well taken, there is always the risk of disease from the fish at the other store. I don't know the other store, and I mentioned in an earlier post about all the fish from one of my local stores seeming to carry disease, so that in itself is a real risk. We can say that your five are probably still stressed at the very least, and stressed fish exposed to some pathogen or protozoan from other fish might not be able to fight it off and die from that. I have no problem putting different fish from the same store purchased at the same time into my QT together, but I do not like putting fish from different stores together in the QT. The stress of just netting the fish and bringing them home is significant and stress weakens the immune system so it is best not to add to the stress. The other thing is that this store seems reliable and knowledgeable and I think it best to give such stores one's business so they know you appreciate it.

Byron.

I hadn't thought about making the current cardinals sick with anything that new cardinals might have. That's a good point.

I completely agree with you about wanting to give most of my business to this store. They are always so out-of-their way friendly there, that I already do buy all of my pet food there (guinea pig, dog, and ridiculously expensive cat food because his majesty has discriminating taste - but he's old, so I give him what he wants) and use their self-service dog wash. I purchased my 55 gallon tank there and all of the supplies (including 3 filters). It is a Pet Supplies Plus, which is I believe, a franchise operation, which explains the crazy-good customer service (the franchise owner wants repeat customers - in my case it has worked). If I did get additional cardinals from a different store, it would just be a few to increase their numbers to a more "safe feeling" level for the poor critters I have now. Perhaps 5 or 6. In the other thread I posted about stocking, it was generally thought that I could add even as many as 30-something, so I would still be able to buy another 20 from this store once they get in some healthy ones.

Regarding the other store, the one I had in mind is actually a PetCo. I know that different ones can be run differently, but there is one near me that always has clean tanks with healthy looking fish every time I go in there. The people in the fish section are always knowledgeable about fish as well. They even took in a pair of HUGE kissing gourami that someone surrendered. They were giving them away but only to someone who had a minimum of a 75 gallon tank and only if there were no tank mates that would be harassed or eaten. There is one employee there who told me she refuses to sell anyone the goldfish bowls if they are buying goldfish because a goldfish bowl is not big enough. She said she had a woman want to buy six cichlids and put all of them in a goldfish bowl. The employee refused to sell her the fish so the lady complained to the store manager who also refused to sell her the fish. They had an unhappy customer but they put the animals' welfare first, which I really appreciated. So, in my mind, I feel okay about shopping there as well to support those employees. They are all long-term employees (been there more than a year) in the fish department anyway.

Anyway, this may seem like a bit of a ramble, but nothing happens in a vacuum and decisions of whether or not to buy more fish are impacted by all of the issues that got raised in this thread so far, so I feel like it was all still relevant. At least it is in my mind and I'm the one buying or not, so I think it is relevant.

But of course, the most important point is that of potentially introducing disease to the current weak cardinals. I'll wait and see what happens. Hopefully they'll all still be alive when I get home.

 

[Byron]

Yes, I think five cardinals that are in a weakened state will fare better in the long term without the risk.

Reminds me of another aspect of this species. When observed in their habitats, it was found that in open water this species was in groups of hundreds. When the habitat was full of branches or aquatic vegetation, the fish remained in clear groups of five or six. This obviously has to do with the stress of open water, which aside from being an interesting observation of the species, also demonstrates the value of filling our tanks with "stuff," be it wood and branches or plants or both. This sort of calming effect is observable with many species; I know angelfish do this as well.

The problem with true chain stores like PetCo is that their fish come from one supplier, and disease can be present everywhere as a result. Local stores and franchises usually have their own sources, sometimes several, so this disease problem is greatly reduced. I have had good franchises here with extremely healthy fish; I deal with a Big Al's outlet for a decade and never had one disease issue, and I never quarantined any fish. I was lucky, agreed, but the supply was also above average. Petsmart and Petland, where I got disease after disease, is a very different story. I even had disease manifest itself four and five months after acquiring the fish, and when I had quarantined them for 6 weeks with no signs of anything. I just won't go in those stores.

Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

I've been silently keeping up with this thread and just wanted to say that Becky, I'm glad the store is being good to you thru out this nightmare (which I'm sorry is happening to you, I know how much you care for your critters).
I hope it all gets worked out and you get some happy healthy fish to enjoy that beautiful home.

And, as always, Byron's input is so informative. I always enjoy a thread where you have much input.

 

[BeckyCats]

I've been silently keeping up with this thread and just wanted to say that Becky, I'm glad the store is being good to you thru out this nightmare (which I'm sorry is happening to you, I know how much you care for your critters).
I hope it all gets worked out and you get some happy healthy fish to enjoy that beautiful home.

And, as always, Byron's input is so informative. I always enjoy a thread where you have much input.

Thank you so much! This has certainly been an awful experience so far (although obviously much worse for the fish than for me, poor little critters). Support from you, from Byron, and the other kind folks here is SO appreciated. It is nice to not have to panic all alone.

There were still 5 living this morning (knock on wood!). I seriously hope that when I get home from work tonight, that there will still be 5 living. I have yet to make an entire 24 hours without loss. They still have no red.