This is why we breed endangered livebearers as well. And we support a project to re-release them in their natural habitats.
Are there LFS's selling endangered fish?
- Thread starter elephantnose3334
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OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
BigJfish12
Fish Crazy
Endangered fish are best protected in organized breeding projects. There is one called C.A.R.E.S., and there are others run by specialist organizations. It's really important to network, and that doesn't mean selling them in stores. It means people coordinating their keeping of a fish, with distinct bloodlines and documentation. I could breed an endangered fish (I do actually) but I could be hit by a meteor tomorrow (or die of old age down the road), and if I didn't have a plan, the fish would end with me. That's useless.
Human lives are very short if compared to how long these species have been around. A considerable portion of them were thriving before Homo sapiens was even present. It's hubris to think a man or woman in wherever can keep them going in one house. The fishfarms will ditch them if they stop selling because something prettier came along, and even if they don't, the crowding will lead to chronic tb taking them out.
Really, we should protect habitat, but that goes against popular economic doctrines. We should have well funded species maintenance centres, so people can see what they destroyed once habitat is gone, but again, that's not in tune with popular ideologies.
When I worked in importing, most calls about endangered fish were from collectors, not breeders. They wanted fish that could not be traded, for whatever weird ego thing they had going. They had zero interest in propagating the fish - they wanted to own them and that's all. Usually, they wanted apex predator fish anyway, and we always said no.
Human lives are very short if compared to how long these species have been around. A considerable portion of them were thriving before Homo sapiens was even present. It's hubris to think a man or woman in wherever can keep them going in one house. The fishfarms will ditch them if they stop selling because something prettier came along, and even if they don't, the crowding will lead to chronic tb taking them out.
Really, we should protect habitat, but that goes against popular economic doctrines. We should have well funded species maintenance centres, so people can see what they destroyed once habitat is gone, but again, that's not in tune with popular ideologies.
When I worked in importing, most calls about endangered fish were from collectors, not breeders. They wanted fish that could not be traded, for whatever weird ego thing they had going. They had zero interest in propagating the fish - they wanted to own them and that's all. Usually, they wanted apex predator fish anyway, and we always said no.
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
Interesting read @GaryE. These endangered species have interested me. So why were the collectors not breed the fish and only want to own them?
If you can understand the minds of collectors (not breeders) of extinct or critically endangered fish, you are ahead of me.
I will undertake breeding a fish in danger if it comes my way, with the goal of spreading it out in the hobby as much as possible. I would never hoard such a treasure. Sometimes it's a fish I don't want to keep, but I have bred such fish and shared them out as much as I could, before moving on to things I prefer to spend energy on. Sometimes, people I have gotten them to have taken over the project and still breed and share them years later.
But a lot of people don't seem to think that way. There is a lively black market in endangered animals, and products from killing them.
What is your motivation for seeking them in stores?
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
So that I can see them and learn their endangered status (i.e. redtail shark, which is critically endangered). That's my motivation. Not purchasing them yet, but I will in the future, just learning about them.
Most fish in the wild are endangered but redtail sharks are not endangered. They are regularly bred in fish farms around the world and have been for years.
Re: collectors. They want different and unusual so they can show it off to their friends and so they have the only one in existence (not quite the only one, but that's the gist of it).
We used to have people coming in looking for rare (usually aggressive) species of fish, most of which we didn't carry. My best friend kept bugging me to get in a group of piranha for him. He wanted to let them go in the local river
He never got them.
As a collector myself, I can say that you are always after that one thing you don't have. Part of the fun of collecting is looking for that one item. It might take you years to get but you keep looking until you get it. Then you move onto the next item and so on. I collect Hippeastrum plants and had a huge collection. I lost them in 2016 but have started to rebuild the collection and every year when bulbs become available I go hunting for ones I don't have.
Even though I am a collector, I also like to share what I have. I breed the plants and when I get seeds or spare bulbs/ plants, I give them to other people that are interested in them. I used to do this with an English Oak tree we had in the backyard. Each year I gathered the acorns and planted them in pots containing soil. Every spring they would pop up and I would give oak trees to people that wanted them. When we moved out of that place, I never managed to get a cutting of the tree for myself. A few years later I went back looking to get cuttings but the new owners had cut all the trees down. I contacted the people I have given oak trees to and they had all lost them or moved and no longer had access to them.
One of the guys in fish club (Ken) had a huge collection of Bromeliads. He had all sorts and used to trade them with other people. He sold his business where he kept his plants and before he could get the plants out, the new owner took a bulldozer through the shade houses and destroyed everything.
My own mother is responsible for making a species of native plant extinct. Many years ago I found a native plant in a bush block that as about to be cleared. The entire area has since been cleared and turned into houses, roads and shops. I got two plants from that block and kept them for years. They never flowered but grew every winter and spring, then went dormant over summer. They were healthy and had big nodules at the base of the roots for water and nutrient storage. The WA Herbarium wanted the plants because they were new to science. I said I will give you some seeds but your not getting the plants. In the summer of 2015 I got seeds after the plants flowered. I had them in my room and was going to give them to the herbarium when I was thrown out of my home by the courts. Shortly after that my mother and sister went through my stuff and threw everything out, including the seeds and adult plants. The herbarium never got their seeds and I lost the only two plants of that kind anywhere in the world. My mother said she threw out the dead plants and any pots that didn't have plants in them. I said 90% of the plants I had were bulbs that died back over summer, and she knew that because she used to comment on them every spring and summer. I got a few issues about that.
The moral to collecting and breeding rare or even common things, is don't have all your eggs in one basket. Share them out and make sure you can get some back if something bad happens. You never know when some moron is going to do something stupid and potentially wipe out a species.
Re: collectors. They want different and unusual so they can show it off to their friends and so they have the only one in existence (not quite the only one, but that's the gist of it).
We used to have people coming in looking for rare (usually aggressive) species of fish, most of which we didn't carry. My best friend kept bugging me to get in a group of piranha for him. He wanted to let them go in the local river
He never got them.As a collector myself, I can say that you are always after that one thing you don't have. Part of the fun of collecting is looking for that one item. It might take you years to get but you keep looking until you get it. Then you move onto the next item and so on. I collect Hippeastrum plants and had a huge collection. I lost them in 2016 but have started to rebuild the collection and every year when bulbs become available I go hunting for ones I don't have.
Even though I am a collector, I also like to share what I have. I breed the plants and when I get seeds or spare bulbs/ plants, I give them to other people that are interested in them. I used to do this with an English Oak tree we had in the backyard. Each year I gathered the acorns and planted them in pots containing soil. Every spring they would pop up and I would give oak trees to people that wanted them. When we moved out of that place, I never managed to get a cutting of the tree for myself. A few years later I went back looking to get cuttings but the new owners had cut all the trees down
. I contacted the people I have given oak trees to and they had all lost them or moved and no longer had access to them.One of the guys in fish club (Ken) had a huge collection of Bromeliads. He had all sorts and used to trade them with other people. He sold his business where he kept his plants and before he could get the plants out, the new owner took a bulldozer through the shade houses and destroyed everything.
My own mother is responsible for making a species of native plant extinct. Many years ago I found a native plant in a bush block that as about to be cleared. The entire area has since been cleared and turned into houses, roads and shops. I got two plants from that block and kept them for years. They never flowered but grew every winter and spring, then went dormant over summer. They were healthy and had big nodules at the base of the roots for water and nutrient storage. The WA Herbarium wanted the plants because they were new to science. I said I will give you some seeds but your not getting the plants. In the summer of 2015 I got seeds after the plants flowered. I had them in my room and was going to give them to the herbarium when I was thrown out of my home by the courts. Shortly after that my mother and sister went through my stuff and threw everything out, including the seeds and adult plants. The herbarium never got their seeds and I lost the only two plants of that kind anywhere in the world. My mother said she threw out the dead plants and any pots that didn't have plants in them. I said 90% of the plants I had were bulbs that died back over summer, and she knew that because she used to comment on them every spring and summer. I got a few issues about that.
The moral to collecting and breeding rare or even common things, is don't have all your eggs in one basket. Share them out and make sure you can get some back if something bad happens. You never know when some moron is going to do something stupid and potentially wipe out a species.
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
1/2 I did check the IUCN red list and said that the redtail sharks were critically endangered in the wild. You were/are a great plant collector, and I appreciate that. These two plants you had were new to science and you were very lucky to own them until the courts threw them out. It's very sad when that happens that the only two in the world got extinct by the law. Hippeastrum are interesting plants. How many did you collect? I understand your anger and sadness in 2016. I was sad and heartbroken when you mentioned the staggering amount of things you lost including your family bible from the 1600's, a Christmas tree you inherited from your grandparents (even though it's not Christmas yet to talk about), a fish guide from 1922, etc. What did they look like and what was the author of the fish guide?Most fish in the wild are endangered but redtail sharks are not endangered. They are regularly bred in fish farms around the world and have been for years.
Re: collectors. They want different and unusual so they can show it off to their friends and so they have the only one in existence (not quite the only one, but that's the gist of it).
We used to have people coming in looking for rare (usually aggressive) species of fish, most of which we didn't carry. My best friend kept bugging me to get in a group of piranha for him. He wanted to let them go in the local river
As a collector myself, I can say that you are always after that one thing you don't have. Part of the fun of collecting is looking for that one item. It might take you years to get but you keep looking until you get it. Then you move onto the next item and so on. I collect Hippeastrum plants and had a huge collection. I lost them in 2016 but have started to rebuild the collection and every year when bulbs become available I go hunting for ones I don't have.
Even though I am a collector, I also like to share what I have. I breed the plants and when I get seeds or spare bulbs/ plants, I give them to other people that are interested in them. I used to do this with an English Oak tree we had in the backyard. Each year I gathered the acorns and planted them in pots containing soil. Every spring they would pop up and I would give oak trees to people that wanted them. When we moved out of that place, I never managed to get a cutting of the tree for myself. A few years later I went back looking to get cuttings but the new owners had cut all the trees down
One of the guys in fish club (Ken) had a huge collection of Bromeliads. He had all sorts and used to trade them with other people. He sold his business where he kept his plants and before he could get the plants out, the new owner took a bulldozer through the shade houses and destroyed everything.
My own mother is responsible for making a species of native plant extinct. Many years ago I found a native plant in a bush block that as about to be cleared. The entire area has been cleared and turned into houses, roads and shops. I got two plants from that block and kept them for years. They never flowered but grew every winter and spring, then went dormant over summer. They were healthy and had big nodules at the base of the roots for water and nutrient storage. The WA Herbarium wanted the plants because they were new to science. I said I will give you some seeds but your not getting the plants. In the summer of 2015 I got seeds after the plants flowered. I had them in my room and was going to give them to the herbarium when I was thrown out of my home by the courts. Shortly after that my mother and sister went through my stuff and threw everything out, including the seeds and adult plants. The herbarium never got their seeds and I lost the only two plants of that kind anywhere in the world. My mother said she threw out the dead plants and any pots that didn't have plants in them. I said 90% of the plants I had were bulbs that died back over summer, and she knew that because she used to comment on them every spring and summer. I got a few issues about that.
The moral to collecting and breeding rare or even common things, is don't have all your eggs in one basket. Share them out and make sure you can get some back if something bad happens. You never know when some moron is going to do something stupid and potentially wipe out a species.
I am very interested in recreating the things you lost in 2016. Is it okay to recreate them via illustrations? I'm an artist, so I'll be happy to recreate them for you. We're here to help you.
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OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
2/2 Also, @Colin_T, what rare stuff did you own? You did mention them in a couple of earlier threads. I am curious because of the rareness of the items. The stuff that I really like the most are rare stuff. The thing about rare stuff is that they are usually collected by collectors or as gifts from a friend who used to own them. You mentioned that you owned stamps, too.I did check the IUCN red list and said that the redtail sharks were critically endangered in the wild. You were/are a great plant collector, and I appreciate that. These two plants you had were new to science and you were very lucky to own them until the courts threw them out. It's very sad when that happens that the only two in the world got extinct by the law. Hippeastrum are interesting plants. How many did you collect? I understand your anger and sadness in 2016. I was sad and heartbroken when you mentioned the staggering amount of things you lost including your family bible from the 1600's, a Christmas tree you inherited from your grandparents (even though it's not Christmas yet to talk about), a fish guide from 1922, etc. What did they look like and what was the author of the fish guide?
I am very interested in recreating the things you lost in 2016. Is it okay to recreate them via illustrations? I'm an artist, so I'll be happy to recreate them for you. We're here to help you.
I used to like birds, too. I actually babysat a cockatiel in Christmas 2018. It was fun, but the problem was I had dogs in my house, so we let them outside the whole time except the bird was asleep with the towel covering the cage. Birds were one of the animals you liked the most. Do you remember the first time you saw them? Why did your own sister and mother remove all your pet birds? It is sad to see your birds go. Are you planning to own birds in the future?
I stand corrected. It's sad they are now endangered but I guess with humans doing what they do, it's not unexpected.
I had about 30 colour varieties of Hippeastrum but I also had heaps of hybrids that I was waiting to see the colours of their flowers. They take 4-5 years from seed, before they flower. So it's a slow process breeding the flower and then growing it on. Most of the time the flower looks like one of the parents and you wasted 4-5 years. Sometimes you get something really nice and then it's happy days.
I also bred kangaroo paws (plants) and had 8 or 9 species with a few varieties of some species.
eg: I had 3 varieties of Anigozanthos viridis, including one called Serpentine Surprise that was grown by a nursery in the back blocks by Nicholson Rd past Canningvale. It was a beautiful emerald green colour and would flower for 6 months at a time.
I had several colour forms of Anigozanthus manglesii (the common red & green plant found in Perth), including a small plant that had a yellow flower on a light green stem. A huge plant (6ft plus) that had a yellow flower and yellow stem. A pink flower and stem with olive green hairs on it. The plant looked brown from a distance but up close you could see the pink and green.
A lot of the A. manglesii were found in some bush near my home. It was a hot spot for genetic variation from these plants and I studied them for 20 years going out there virtually daily photographing them and recording info about them. Every 2 or 3 years a new colour variety would appear in the area and I would grab seeds and cross pollinate them to see if I could get more.
It was also home to a number of native orchids that I was studying. I had some great photos of beetles breeding on the orchid flower and picking up pollen at the same time. Then the female beetle moved to another flower and the males followed her and the pollen got picked up by the other plant. it went on for over an hour with a tiny (2-3mm long) female beetle being followed by 4 or 5 males in a line.
The orchids would shut down in late spring when it stopped raining. If they were given water on a daily basis, they remained out until Christmas or even New Year, but if they went without water for 3 or 4 days after they were meant to shut down, they just shut down immediately. This has implications now due to a drying climate. If the orchids and kangaroo paws don't get enough water in winter and spring, they won't survive summer and will disappear for good. It's the same issue with the salamanderfish, lack of rain in winter and spring, plus longer hotter dryer summers means extinction for so many things.
The Christmas tree was about 6 foot tall and made of dark green plastic. It had a dark brown stem and 4 feet that supported it at the base. The feet of the tree were flat on the ground, unlike today's that are arched up in a curve and made of steel rod. The trunk had bark markings moulded into the plastic. The leaves could be taken off the branches and sometimes fell off when the tree was in the box or being set up. After the tree was put together we gathered the leaves (which looked like little Christmas trees) and put them back on the tree. We would spend hours looking for spare stems without leaves to put them onto.I understand your anger and sadness in 2016. I was sad and heartbroken when you mentioned the staggering amount of things you lost including your family bible from the 1600's, a Christmas tree you inherited from your grandparents (even though it's not Christmas yet to talk about), a fish guide from 1922, etc. What did they look like and what was the author of the fish guide?
I am very interested in recreating the things you lost in 2016. Is it okay to recreate them via illustrations? I'm an artist, so I'll be happy to recreate them for you. We're here to help you.
It was a nice Christmas tree shape with big long wide branches at the bottom, working up to smaller thinner branches up top. My grandparents on dad's side were German and they used to decorate it with mercury glass ornaments they saved when they left Germany just after the war, and a few more modern glass ornaments from the 60s & 70s. They had these lovely lights that were star shaped and had different colours. If the lights didn't work, you had to check each light individually to make sure they were screwed in properly. They were similar size to modern LED Christmas lights but they were actual light globes, just tiny ones. Before they got the plastic tree we used a branch from a pine tree.
-----
The book was a present from a friend. I helped her out at her shop a few times and when she shut the place down, she offered me the book. It was given to her by her dad when she was a little girl and she wanted me to have it because she knew I would take care of it.
The book was about 6-7 inches tall x 5 inches wide x about 2 inches thick. It was hard cover and had several hundred pages that were brown from age. It had black & white drawings and a few b&w photographs in it, along with descriptions of how they warmed aquariums and looked after them. They had candles or oil lamps on adjustable shelves under the tank. You raised or lowered the shelves to increase or decrease the water temperature. They had some really nice drawings of Betta splendens with long flowing fins in really fancy glass fish bowls. The bowls were much nicer than anything you see today and would often have wavy edges around the top and glass decorations on the side of the bowl. They showed black & white angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare) in planted tanks with oil or kerosene lamps in a row (on an angle) above the tank. The lamps were for the aquarium plants because they didn't have good lighting. I don't know who the author was or even what the book was called anymore. But I should never have lost it.
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
Wow. That's nice. Like really nice. That's much better than my Christmas tree I have at the moment! I like how you remember things that were a long time ago. It's extremely interesting when your grandparents from Germany brought their ornaments to here after the war. I wish I had a book similar to yours. The roaring 20s' were interesting in the aquarium perceptive.
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I was given some stamps as a young child and would always ask if I could have the stamps on the envelopes. Back then they all came with stamps and snail mail was the way to go. Everyone knew I liked stamps so everyone used to give them to me. When people died and my family members knew the people or their family, they would get any stamps from them for me. I had boxes (2ft square x 1 ft high) of them covering all sorts of subjects and from WW1 onwards. A number of people had stamp collections and when they passed away, I got their collections to add to my own. I had boxes with stamps in from 80, 90, 100 yrs ago. Some had envelopes with letters to the people, others had match box collections in and coins or money (notes).
I lost my money collection too. I had a collection of Australian decimal coins and notes ranging from the first decimal notes in 1966 to the latest plastic ones about 10 years ago. I had round 50 cent coins that were made of silver and worth a lot more than 50 cents. People used to shave the 50 cent coins and collect the filings, then melt them down and sell them for a few dollars. I got the first one of those from my grandmother (on dad's side), same as the Christmas tree. That coin from my grandmother was stolen when some kids broke into our home and used the money they took from my piggy bank to by knives. I had other coins from all around the world and some of them dated back over 150 years.
As far back as I can remember I was always fascinated by birds and fish. I would sit in the garden and watch birds in the trees or running around on the ground. When I was about 5 or 6 we went to a zoo or sanctuary and they had aviaries there. I sat by this one aviary for about an hour just watching a mother quail sitting on some eggs. She was a tiny bird and the eggs were this brilliant blue colour. She would hop up and roll them around and fluff herself up before sitting back down on them. I thought it was fascinating and the teacher ended up dragging me away because we had to go. After that anything they came from an egg or had wings was interesting.
We had a couple of budgies after that and then got a pr (turned out to be 2 male) weeros (cockatiels) who lived indoors for a few years. Then I built an aviary outside and put them in there. We got them 2 girlfriends and they bred, but the males wouldn't let the females incubate the eggs. The males took over the nest, incubated the eggs and fed the babies. The females must have been wondering what was going on because that was meant to be their job.
I have nowhere to keep birds currently and will probably be dead before Homeswest gives me a place to live. I have only been waiting for public housing since 2000 so doubt I will get anything this century, let alone this decade, and I will probably be dead before then. The closest I come to birds now is putting some seed outside for the local doves. There is a pr that lives nearby and they come down each day to get a feed. They have been doing it for a year now and still don't trust me but are getting tamer. They startle me a lot because I go outside and don't realise they are there, then they see me and take off. It causes my heart beat to increase and then I have to go and take a heart pill and sit down. The male dove is funny and brings his girlfriend down. He feeds her, mounts her, and then struts around making funny noises for a minute. I don't know if he is showing off to me or just crowing about getting a home run. I just shake my head and say lucky buggar.
The last couple of days there has been a small honey eater or something hanging around. I'm hoping it is eating some of the insects outside because they are driving me nuts. Unfortunately the honey eater? takes off as soon as it sees me.
OP
OP
elephantnose3334
Fishaholic
1/2 Aww... It was nice to see you with birds. And what a collection you had of stamps and coins. These things always interest me. Did you know that Freddie Mercury, the singer of Queen, used to collect stamps as well when he was younger? Found this beauty of an article from 2020: https://www.postalmuseum.org/blog/freddie-mercurys-stamp-album/
I didn't know that some of your coins were 150 years old. They have survived a long time under various peoples' ownership. You were one lucky lad.
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I have the collecting thing going too, with music and with fish. I really like to see and hear new to me things. I can't breed music, but I have never wanted to be the exclusive owner of anything. I would say we own nothing, and ownership is something we've made laws about to help us pretend. Where I live will be here long after I'm not, and what it will become has nothing to do with me. I hope the trees are left to grow, but this area is probably in the sights of property developers already, and while the people currently here have resisted the urge to cash in, that will break and we'll see how it plays out.
When I get rare fish, I try to spread them around. Sadly though, almost all aquarists are consumers and will not breed their fish. I shared out more than 30 species of Apistogramma in the 1990s, and not one of the people who wanted them kept them for more than one generation. I didn't either, and never planned to, but I saw myself as someone who could start the fish on the road to popularity by distributing multiple pairs of f-1s. It didn't work out.
The usual pattern is that you get a call 2 or 3 years later, and the person who got the fish you bred wants to buy more. That's even if you said you were passing them along to be bred, because they weren't a priority. I have lots of fish that I do prioritize (killies mainly) and no one person has the resources to maintain and breed everything rare.
I know how fortunate I am to have been in a context where I could see and keep so many fish hardly anyone had kept before, but my attempts to spread that richness never panned out. I did okay spreading info about them, but the actual fish are mostly out of the hobby. Maybe it'll change with my Gabon fish. Every generation of aquarists produces different people who want to do different things.
When I get rare fish, I try to spread them around. Sadly though, almost all aquarists are consumers and will not breed their fish. I shared out more than 30 species of Apistogramma in the 1990s, and not one of the people who wanted them kept them for more than one generation. I didn't either, and never planned to, but I saw myself as someone who could start the fish on the road to popularity by distributing multiple pairs of f-1s. It didn't work out.
The usual pattern is that you get a call 2 or 3 years later, and the person who got the fish you bred wants to buy more. That's even if you said you were passing them along to be bred, because they weren't a priority. I have lots of fish that I do prioritize (killies mainly) and no one person has the resources to maintain and breed everything rare.
I know how fortunate I am to have been in a context where I could see and keep so many fish hardly anyone had kept before, but my attempts to spread that richness never panned out. I did okay spreading info about them, but the actual fish are mostly out of the hobby. Maybe it'll change with my Gabon fish. Every generation of aquarists produces different people who want to do different things.
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