Aqurium Salts

[raptorrex]

well i dont pay for it to start off with so thats ok, a year of my clown plecs you say, hmmm. what do you mean underlying problems in my care? basically you are calling me a #### fish keeper

so at 12 months your fish is just as healthy as a fish not not kept with salt. how does that indicate it is doing any good? at best it would seem to have no effect, unless all your fish died, before you started using it. if the latter was the case, i would accept the offer made by "rabbut", not spit at him for making it.

 

[rabbut]

I think Andy summarises my comments well To re-iterate, if the salt is helping, it is because there was something stressing the fish in the background. If it isn't helping in your case, which is highly likely in your case, then the salt may be doing damage. Not knowing a tonic is may caurse harm in itself does not make you a bad fishkeeper, but using salt because you see it as helping would surgest that you had lots of issues before using it. This would imply in turn that there is something that isn't right. If you have used salt all the time, you have no base line to compre it's use with, so you cannot realy say if it is or isn't helping That was the point I was wanting to make

 

[gavva]

i dont seem too have any problems with the health in any of my fish but i was going to add it to maintain there health if they are all ok i think i wount bother

 

[loachman]

i ue a small amaount of salt every water change, and i havent had any diseases, so i figure it must help with disease prevention, and i also have it on stand by if i do get a sick fish. my plecs are fine so no burnings. do shrimp tolerate salt, TPN and easy carbo? (cherry and amano)

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[waterdrop]

Since this topic has happened in the "New to the Hobby" section, it might be helpful if one of the experienced members could review the reason why, for beginners to hear, in the 1950's 1960's, when the principles of ammonia and nitrite problems were not widely understood, negatives of heavy metals and organics buildups were not widely understood, and water changes were frowned upon, the action of salt either did or was thought to lessen the negative effects of lack of water changes.

From my reading here on TFF, I believe Andy and rabbut are clearly and correctly making a re-statement of the conclusions found in many threads on the subject of salt in freshwater aquariums here on TFF. For my part, I just can't happen to remember which bad condition it was that salt supposedly lessened the effect of back in the old days. Can one of you step up with that?

The fact that salt is not needed in freshwater aquariums on any kind of regular basis is an important water issue for beginners to understand and it would be best if we start them out with a clear grasp of the issues as we see them on TFF I think.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Corleone]

Since this topic has happened in the "New to the Hobby" section, it might be helpful if one of the experienced members could review the reason why, for beginners to hear, in the 1950's 1960's, when the principles of ammonia and nitrite problems were not widely understood, negatives of heavy metals and organics buildups were not widely understood, and water changes were frowned upon, the action of salt either did or was thought to lessen the negative effects of lack of water changes.

I've got some books that cover it pretty well, so here's the rough rundown - as usual when people are playing scientist, there's probably a dozen variations (the books disagree on a few things, as well). Having never actually done anything like it, I can only give a rough review of the books and mix in some fish-store standard advice I was handed when I bought my tank. If anybody actually did this, or at least kept fish when it was done, I'd love to hear their take on it.

The biggest thing comes down to a poor understanding of the cycle process. All the right observations were there, but they were being connected wrong.

A tank was set up, fish were added, fish stressed and often died (the new tank syndrome many still deal with to this day). However, after a month or so of this, fish would survive. Today, we have a good understanding of the cycle, where bacteria form, and so forth. However, in the past, it was a common misconception that the *water* cycled, not the filter, which is why to this day, even with the better understanding, you often hear on this forum not to change too much water at a time, because you lose bacteria.

So, the noise was about "old water." Water that had fish in it for a month didn't kill fish, water that hasn't had fish in it did. So water changes were avoided, and water quality went south. High nitrates, pH crash, the whole nine yards (One of the old books my grandfather gave me even mentions the pH crash as the measure of a "mature" tank, the other correctly recognizes this as a bad thing and has a list of products and DIY solutions to prevent it*). Fish that were in the system through this often survived, but new fish introduced into it would often die - this is what we call old tank syndrome today. One book puts this up to nebulous "weakness" in the system, the other repeatedly calls it "captivity stress," as if to say it was an unavoidable byproduct of confining fish in glass. Water changes at this point actually can actually shock the fish to death if water quality improves too quickly, which reinforces the concept that the old water was better than the new water.

Salt happens to reduce the toxicity of nitrates (and nitrites during a fish-in cycle). So, in these methods, salt did decrease the considerable (and sometimes fatal) stress that the method put on fish. Old tank without salt: badly stressed, dying fish. Old tank with salt: much less stressed fish. One of the two books notes that "salt doesn't entirely eliminate captivity stress," what we know now, it was just trading a greater stress for a lesser stress.

Another thing I note, both books suggest that there's no way to run a tank for more than 1-2 years without entirely tearing it down and cleaning it out. My take there (just a guess, maybe somebody has better info here), is that ultimately, all the above is just a stall. The system simply isn't sustainable like that, eventually the water quality will decay to the point that salt can't help anymore.

* - the DIY solutions are the same that get mentioned today in regards to pH during a fishless cycle. If you think about it, a fishless cycle is a lot like leaving a tank running too long without water changes.

Edit: As for the books, they aren't exactly high literature - one was a local fish club publication given to new members, the other seems to be a real publication, but missing the cover I don't know who wrote it. From something Rabbut said, it sounds like better methods existed even then, and I do have a TFH publication from the late 70's which gives passable advise on water changes.

 

[waterdrop]

Many thanks Corleone! Excellent writeup, Bravo!

This jogs my memory now as being correct about the salt "somewhat" lowering the stress on fish that are probably "severely" stressed by nitrite and maybe not happy about hight nitrates either (although we now know this can get perhaps get way up there (nitrates(NO3)=1000ppm or more!) without outright killing them.)

I would love to re-read this sort of topic in my old, heavy hardback "Innes" book from the 50's (probably most of you old guys have a copy of this old hardback, often having a bright yellow cover?) as it was no-doubt a bit "off" with some information as compared to current practice. Alas, my mom sold that book in a yardsale decades ago! And the covers of other old texts spring up in my mind's eye, but I no longer have them nor can remember the authors or titles!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[gavva]

so would it be advisable to add salt to a cycleling tank when nitrites are high , i dont know i am a newbie plus i add'd cant remeber the name nitrazorb pouch to my fluval 205 filter it said it is reacivated by bathing it in a salt solution ?

 

[Corleone]

so would it be advisable to add salt to a cycleling tank when nitrites are high , i dont know i am a newbie plus i add'd cant remeber the name nitrazorb pouch to my fluval 205 filter it said it is reacivated by bathing it in a salt solution ?

Stay away from stuff like Nitrazorb and Zeolite that absorb ammonia or nitrite - your tank can become dependent on these media, because they can be efficient enough to starve out the nitrifying bacteria you want in the tank, so you have to keep it refreshed or dare a sudden decline in water quality. If I'm mistaken and nitrazorb only absorbs nitrAte, stay away from it anyway - water changes are cheap as to be free and accomplish the same thing, as well as being all-around healthy for the tank for many reasons.

If you're doing a fish-in cycle, there's something to be said for salt during the nitrite phase of the cycle, however, you'll end up using a lot of salt, since daily (or almost daily) water changes will still be in order to control water quality. For fishless cycling, there's no reason for salt, as there's no fish, and the bacteria aren't bothered by nitrite in the levels usually generated in a fishless cycle.

 

[OldMan47]

The best, fastest and most appropriate method of dealing with a nitrite spike is the same one used to deal with ammonia. Do lots of large water changes to get the levels back to where they belong. No amount of salt will do more than let the fish survive a short time with excessive nitrites. Even this nebulous treatment will only help with fish that are not sensitive to salt. In some fish, even the slight benefit of salt is more than offset by the fact that they can't tolerate salt well. All fish, with no exceptions that I can think of, will tolerate a water change quite well and in the bargain they will have the benefit of better water quality. Temperatures should be matched fairly well and chlorine should be removed before adding the new water, but if done regularly with adequate care, it is the one thing that will help your fish survive a fish-in cycle.

 

[gavva]

thanks everyone for your time and effort you guys are great

 

[gavva]

plus them endless guppies look great should a been could picasso guppy