Aquarium Lighting Concern

[mangoed]

Hi,

[I've moved this post from New to the hobby as suggested.]

I've recently bought a [Hagen] Fluval Vicenza 180 aquarium which I hoped would be suitable for someone new to the pastime/vocation of fishkeeping (that is, me).

As seemed prudent, I've been reading as much as I can about the various requirements and responsibilities of keeping tropical fish, both on these excellent forums and elsewhere.

I want to create a planted aquarium and have purchased 27.2kg (60lbs) of Eco-Complete to use as substrate, a 25W RENA COR heating cord, and a D-D Complete CO2 Set (actually this set came, not as described, but with a small submersible pump which I presume is used for dispersing the CO2 in the aquarium).

In short, I thought I was set to go but I am very concerned about the matter of lighting. By any measure I can find on the Internet, the aquarium seems to be supplied with lighting equipment which provides only a very low level of light! The aquarium canopy is fixed and specific to the particular model - the supplied bulbs are two 24W 55cm/22" Power-Glo fluorescents (T-5, High Output, 18000K, 900 lumens, 122 lux) with corresponding ballast and reflectors. All of this is built-in and apparently difficult to alter (apart from replacing the bulbs with others of identical form factor, obviously).

This is a 180l (47.6 US gallons) with a usable capacity of around 151l (39.9 US gallons) which will be further reduced by the quantity of substrate. It has external dimensions of 92x30-41x55cm (36.2x11.8-16.1x21.7") - the front is bowed, hence the two figures. This would give a rectangular surface area of approximately 3772cm2 (4 square feet) - actually this is the upper figure, assuming a rectangle instead of a curve.

Calculating the watts per gallon (WPG) gives 1.2 which, I believe, is low (very low?). Other measurements I've read about (concerning the lumens, lux and/or surface area) give even more frightening results. The bulbs are described as being "ideal for planted aquariums" but they seem to be having a laugh (or, at minimum, indulging in some kind of sales spin). I'm concerned about the plants that I'm going to be able to grow successfully in these conditions - I was going to order a collection from somewhere like Aquarium Gardening which won't be much good if I receive a bunch of unsuitable species.

As an aside, I can see why Hagen supply these particular bulbs because their other tubes would be too long (an 85cm/33.5" 39W or a 115cm/45.3" 54W). However, I wish the canopy could accommodate four of these bulbs!

I would really appreciate any advice (if you've got this far). Thanks.

-dan

 

[nry]

You can grow plants at 1.2wpg, they may not grow as fast, but they can grow.

I had 1wpg for a long time, and the plants that struggled were mainly the bottom growing ones requiring really high light levels.

The choice is really yours:

1) Stick with what you have and choose plants and fertiliser/water change frequency to suit
2) Rip out or add to the existing lighting

Both methods can work to produce superb results providing you choose the right options, both high and low-light (and correspondingly usually high and low tech) approaches have been demonstrated frequently on this forum.

The CO2 set you have is the same as the one I just purchased, I also didn't expect the pump, instead I thought it had a ceramic diffuser supplied. For my 15-gallon the pump is simply too big but it should be well suited to your larger tank. if you don't wish to use it you can buy a ceramic diffuser for £10-£15 which will also work pretty well. Even at 1.2wpg CO2 will be beneficial, the plants will still grow slower than at a higher wpg, but they should grow much thicker/lusher than without CO2. If you don't already have one, a drop checker alongside some 4dkh water and bromo blue will be very useful. See:

http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php/...x/cPath/196_198

Though you may get things a bit cheaper on eBay (which for once is true!).

 

[BHornsey]

I agree with nry. If this is your first tank, stick with low light levels. The more light, the harder the plants are driven to grow and the more problems you can have.
Once you have success, you can go on to a bit more light, though realistically, unless the tank is very deep (>2 foot) you have no need to exceed 2 wpg. Everything grows at that level, just a little more slowly.

 

[mangoed]

Thanks very much for the advice, guys!

I realise these additional questions are not about lighting but they follow on directly from my post - let me know if I should create a separate topic.

Do you have any idea as to the drop in pH I might expect from the use of the CO2 System? I haven't tested my pH yet but I'm expecting around 7.4 (this is the mean from the Water Quality Report from my local area, and ranges from 7.2 to 7.7 locally). I also haven't tested my GH and KH yet - the Water Quality Report lists Degrees Clarke, Degrees German (DH) and Degrees French. At least some (or all) of these, I believe, have to do with water hardness (the figures are 19.1, 15.3 and 27.4 respectively). It also gives a likely calcium carbonate (CaCO3) reading of 274 (mean, range 250- 297). In conclusion, it is likely to be hard, alkaline water. I'm not intending to use the system to deliberately alter water chemistry but I'm assuming that the pH might lower due to the precipitation of CO2 as carbolic acid. Then when the injection system is off at night (I have a solenoid which came with the kit to achieve this) presumably the plants release CO2 due to respiration. Is this likely to cause the pH to fluctuate much?

I also have a Dupla CO2 Continuous Test but unfortunately this only displays 'too little', 'too much' or 'just right' which is a pretty macro scale!

Finally, to nry if you are reading (this may save me from emailing product support at Dupla). The instructions for the CO2 System have left me a bit confused. They say:

Place the diffuser near the bottom of the tank in a position where it can be observed in operation

But the illustration shows the diffuser as being attached externally near the top of the tank. Which is it? Also, can the pump be mounted either way up - does it matter where the airline (acutally CO2-line) enters it, above or below? I ask the latter because the line as supplied is rather short, especially so due to the path by which it has to exit my specific tank. Can I replace it and, if so, what should I be looking for?

Cheers,

-dan

 

[JamieH]

You may find that, with low light levels... and if you keep the surface disturbance to a minimum, you don;t actually need c02 at all.

I have none in my tank ATM and it's doing fine.

 

[mangoed]

I have read that with particularly low light levels that there is more of a danger of oversupplying CO2. This would seem to make sense because if the scarcity of light is affecting photosynthesis then surely this will affect CO2 uptake as well (due to reduced photosynthesis) and so less should be introduced.

However, since I've already spent £100 on the CO2 System - I'd like to use it if possible! Great to hear that your tank is doing so well without it though.

One can read around and get so many different opinions - clearly this gets quite confusing when one is a complete novice. CO2 injection seemed to be one of those things that was described as essential for a planted aquarium so I splashed out for it - however until I've actually tried it (and maybe even then) I won't be able to tell if it was effective or not.

I'm actually following a step-by-step book and, for better or for worse, trying to deviate from it as little as possible (it recommends CO2 injection). My decision to do this was based, in part, on rather overdosing on Internet-available information and feeling more and more confused. I'm now trying to ask specifically targetted questions to make up for the book's inadequacies and to avoid working myself into a state of information-overload induced apoplexy!

-dan

 

[JamieH]

I have read that with particularly low light levels that there is more of a danger of oversupplying CO2. This would seem to make sense because if the scarcity of light is affecting photosynthesis then surely this will affect CO2 uptake as well (due to reduced photosynthesis) and so less should be introduced.

However, since I've already spent £100 on the CO2 System - I'd like to use it if possible! Great to hear that your tank is doing so well without it though.

One can read around and get so many different opinions - clearly this gets quite confusing when one is a complete novice. CO2 injection seemed to be one of those things that was described as essential for a planted aquarium so I splashed out for it - however until I've actually tried it (and maybe even then) I won't be able to tell if it was effective or not.

I'm actually following a step-by-step book and, for better or for worse, trying to deviate from it as little as possible (it recommends CO2 injection). My decision to do this was based, in part, on rather overdosing on Internet-available information and feeling more and more confused. I'm now trying to ask specifically targetted questions to make up for the book's inadequacies and to avoid working myself into a state of information-overload induced apoplexy!

-dan

I fully understand... it can seem so complex... and so many choices to make without ever knowing which one is the right decision.... and very often you don;t know until afterwards anyway!

It's great you want to go 'by-the-book' because that will certainly ensure you minimise any chance of things going really wrong.

IMO - if you realyl want to make use of the C02, then see if you can mod the hood to add some extra lighting.

Jamie

 

[BHornsey]

Hi,
Provided it's heavily planted, low light and CO2 shouldn't be a problem, just back off the supply rate because the plants will use it more slowly than with high light.
The Dupla CO2 test is, if I'm not mistaken, just a drop test in a fancy bottle. When it runs out, use a 4dKH solution and bromo blue instead. Far cheaper - search the posts for 'drop checker'. What you are looking for is a steady light green (unless Dupla says something else) They aren't complicated
Don't be too worried by your pH. Yes, carbonic acid will force the pH down but there are many other acids present in an aquarium, all affecting pH. This is why the KH/pH/CO2 tables fall down; it assumes carbonic acid is the only one present.
Most fish aren't that troubled by changing pH provided it isn't extreme. Typically, mine is about 6.8 in the morning before CO2 comes on and anything down to 6.1 by the evening.

 

[Dave Spencer]

You have a fairly decent sized tank, so 1.2WPG is not too bad a light level (the WPG rule is not a linear function). CO2 may not be vital to your tank, but you should see some kind of benefit from it. Stick with your current light levels as they will mean you should still be able to grow most plants, but you should find keeping algae away a lot easier. Hopefully, you will start up a journal in the journal`s section of this forum.

Have you got any kind of fertiliser regime figured out? You could try the overstocked with fish method.

Welcome to the confusing and argumentative world of plants where we will all tell you how to make your tank better whether you like it or not, because we are all experts.

Dave.

 

[MadMan-JaMeS]

I have read that with particularly low light levels that there is more of a danger of oversupplying CO2. This would seem to make sense because if the scarcity of light is affecting photosynthesis then surely this will affect CO2 uptake as well (due to reduced photosynthesis) and so less should be introduced.

However, since I've already spent £100 on the CO2 System - I'd like to use it if possible! Great to hear that your tank is doing so well without it though.

One can read around and get so many different opinions - clearly this gets quite confusing when one is a complete novice. CO2 injection seemed to be one of those things that was described as essential for a planted aquarium so I splashed out for it - however until I've actually tried it (and maybe even then) I won't be able to tell if it was effective or not.

I'm actually following a step-by-step book and, for better or for worse, trying to deviate from it as little as possible (it recommends CO2 injection). My decision to do this was based, in part, on rather overdosing on Internet-available information and feeling more and more confused. I'm now trying to ask specifically targetted questions to make up for the book's inadequacies and to avoid working myself into a state of information-overload induced apoplexy!

-dan

where abouts in oxford you from ?

theres a few of us oxfordians on here

 

[mangoed]

where abouts in oxford you from ?

theres a few of us oxfordians on here

I live opposite South Park at the bottom of Headington Hill.

Always good to make the acquaintance of a fellow Oxford-dweller.

-dan

 

[mangoed]

Typically, mine is about 6.8 in the morning before CO2 comes on and anything down to 6.1 by the evening.

I expect that mine will be higher given the average hardness and alkalinity of the water around here. The range is interesting though - I remember reading dire warnings about changes of more than 0.3 in a 24 hour period somewhere on the web. Clearly, however, this doesn't affect the well-being of your fish.

-dan

 

[mangoed]

This might be better in another post (since it has nothing to do with lighting) but this one seems to be going so amicably...

I am soon to begin a fishless cycle as described elsewhere on these forums. Should I leave planting my tank until after the cycle is completed or should I (can I?) plant it before? Basically, what effect would the higher concentrations of ammonia/nitrites (and concomitant pH fluctuations) have on the planted aquarium?

Also, there is a warning on the Hagen website about using active carbon in filters with a planted aquarium (due to the removal of macro and micro-nutrients essential for plants but presumably not for fish). Hagen sell an inert fine filter pad which could be used instead - should I substitute this?

Thanks.

-dan

 

[mangoed]

Have you got any kind of fertiliser regime figured out? You could try the overstocked with fish method.

I haven't really considered this yet beyond a bottle of Seachem Flourish (or the like) and the Eco-Complete substrate used.

I shall look into the method you suggest.

There is a tendency, I think, to focus overly on the fish to the detriment of the habitat; which is something I'm trying not to do - but there seem an overwhelming number of angles which need to be covered! I'm going to attempt my first water tests tomorrow and already have enough bottles of reagent (all of which are labelled with something along the lines of "danger of instant death upon inhalation") to open an apothecary.

-dan

 

[BHornsey]

I am soon to begin a fishless cycle as described elsewhere on these forums. Should I leave planting my tank until after the cycle is completed or should I (can I?) plant it before? Basically, what effect would the higher concentrations of ammonia/nitrites (and concomitant pH fluctuations) have on the planted aquarium?

I shouldn't worry 'bout a fishless cycle. Planted tanks are different.
Planted tanks (heavily planted over 3/4 of the substrate) are very good filters. Plants will take up nitrogenous waste very quickly.
Make sure you have a fert routine decided, get CO2 working, then drain off half, plant up, fill up, get CO2 back up, then turn on lights.
Leave it without fish for two or three days, then put in a few a week, the bigger the tank the more fish (my 115G I put in a dozen a week max)
During the first two months, whilst the tank is settling in, it is liable to a small algae outbreak. In mine I had a dusting of diatoms. Nothing heavy and the ottos said thank you very much
To help, carry out frequent water changes. I did it every two days for the first fortnight. Then every 3-4 days for the next month, until about 6-8 weeks after starting, when I went to weekly. Algae hates growing plants and fresh water. It can also help if you can get some Seachem Excel, algae hates that too!
During the first couple of weeks I kept the lights on short intervals, four hours for the first week, 6 the next, then 8, then finally 10.

I expect that mine will be higher given the average hardness and alkalinity of the water around here. The range is interesting though - I remember reading dire warnings about changes of more than 0.3 in a 24 hour period somewhere on the web. Clearly, however, this doesn't affect the well-being of your fish.

There's a lot of hyperbole about fish care, usually in attempt to get you to buy the latest 'snake oil'. pH swings occur natrually in nature. Big, sudden changes in water can affect them but they adapt. I find that no matter what I do, when I introduce a new fish to my aquarium, it takes 'em a while to get used to higher CO2. Most lfs' don't have it and they spend an hour or so gasping at the surface but then they adapt. I've never lost one yet. Next day they're fine.