Any Divers Here?

[andywg]

Woo yay!

Despite feeling alright on a shortish (20 min) shallow (less than 15m) dive in 6 degrees (some read 5) in February, I ordered the drysuits yesterday at the dive show.

If you do go to look at drysuits at some time Arfie, you could do worse than wetsuit outlet, they offer the Typhoon Pro Sport drysuit (the one suit under £500 that I have ever heard anyone say is actually dry, not just a bit leaky) with an undersuit for £399. I only paid £370 at the show (but that was when buying three at the same time). They also offer a made to measure service, in case you are an odd shape.

With pony cylinders bought as well I now have (in theory) two sets of regs, so a twinset surely cannot be further way than the end of the year. Though the death boxes do look very attractive...

 

[Arfie]

Glad someone got something useful out of LIDS08 Personally I've got no intention of going back there after this one. 3 1/2 hours to get there, hardly any exhibitors, missed the one talk I wanted to see and nothing cheaper than I could get from LDS. Birmingham is much bigger in terms of number of exhibitors and stands and people present. I only picked up a new mask, a kit bag big enough to take all my kit on a boat and a drybag.

I've done a 40m at 4C and several 30-40 mins in 5-7C this winter in a semi, but I'm going to have to go Dry so I'm having a MTM done by Seaskin up in t'Leeds Buddy has one and so do lots of others on Yorkshire Divers forum. I am an odd size apparently with my waist measurements I should be 6'6"+ (no kidding!). I'll go to the factory and have them measure me. One of my mates is doing his OW and he wants one too, so we'll go as a pair and try and get all the bits added on for free or at least a discount.

Still £370 inc undersuit is pretty good. Is it neo or membrain?

If It wasn't Seaskin, I'd probably go for RoHo as they are just up the road too. Rather odd that I live in central England and there are tons of top diving manufactures and retailers within an hour of here. SDS, Go-Dive, Beaver, RoHo, Otter, Bowstone, Seaskin are all close by.

I'll probably go to Dive08 at NEC but mainly for the presentations and to meet a few other folk. The diving forums differ from fish forums in that people actually turn up to social events and meet in real life

You can still keep your YBOD though

Arfie

 

[andywg]

Glad someone got something useful out of LIDS08 Personally I've got no intention of going back there after this one. 3 1/2 hours to get there, hardly any exhibitors, missed the one talk I wanted to see and nothing cheaper than I could get from LDS. Birmingham is much bigger in terms of number of exhibitors and stands and people present. I only picked up a new mask, a kit bag big enough to take all my kit on a boat and a drybag.

The dive shows are getting much worse these days. The internet is spoiling what would once have been great bargains. However, Dirty divers is always great. I spent so long looking and shopping I didn't have time for any of the talks.

I've done a 40m at 4C and several 30-40 mins in 5-7C this winter in a semi, but I'm going to have to go Dry so I'm having a MTM done by Seaskin up in t'Leeds Buddy has one and so do lots of others on Yorkshire Divers forum. I am an odd size apparently with my waist measurements I should be 6'6"+ (no kidding!). I'll go to the factory and have them measure me. One of my mates is doing his OW and he wants one too, so we'll go as a pair and try and get all the bits added on for free or at least a discount.

MTM is always nice; I really wish I could have got the Hammonds Harlequin suit. Must have pretty much every colour they do

Still £370 inc undersuit is pretty good. Is it neo or membrain?

Membrane. The idea of neo just doesn't appeal to me, especially it losing its thermal properties as you go deeper, and believe me, I have every intention of going deep. Even better, with a drysuit I can now seriously consider a possible Antarctic diving expedition in around 2010.

If It wasn't Seaskin, I'd probably go for RoHo as they are just up the road too. Rather odd that I live in central England and there are tons of top diving manufactures and retailers within an hour of here. SDS, Go-Dive, Beaver, RoHo, Otter, Bowstone, Seaskin are all close by.

I hear good things about RoHo, they do some pretty good deals. There were three criteria for me when picking the dry: Doesn't leak, is comfortable and is made by a British company.

A lot of manufacturers seem to base in the Midlands as they are pretty close to every where and prevents a Penzance to Wick style delivery run.

I'll probably go to Dive08 at NEC but mainly for the presentations and to meet a few other folk. The diving forums differ from fish forums in that people actually turn up to social events and meet in real life

Probably because most divers are adults who can drive (and drink!) rather than this forum being populated by many people who are living with the 'rents and have no transportation. Also, when you are prepared to get up at silly o' clock to go and jump in icey water, going somewhere warm for a couple of hours is less of an issue...

You can still keep your YBOD though

With the price of them, you can guarantee I would. However, without one I would have little chance of hitting the Brittania. Apparently a couple of people dived the Brittania without any bail out last year on a box. That is a lot of faith in the Inspiration (and stupidity for doing it IMHO).

 

[Arfie]

Yep I love Dirty Divers, though through sheer willpower I managed not to buy any more tat to sit in the bottom of my box

I'm also all for membrane with my bioprene I could probably manage with a t-shirt instead of an undersuit I would have thought you've have been heading down the DIR route and having everything in black. I saw that Hammond one , there was one on fleabay recently and my buddy mentioned it to two of our non diving friends. They all decided that they'd buy it for me I was very thankful to find that it was a full 4" too small on the waist and chest, though I would have worn it at least once.

It's not just the internet killing it (though it is a good part of it) it's also the costs involved for the exhibitors and the attendance. I spoke to a few who weren't going and a few of the smaller exhibitors are members on thediving forum and they confirmed that with the cost of stands being so high and the low attendance in London, it's getting less worthwhile going. Birmingham is still viable as more people actually bother going.

Another issue is that Birmingham is at the end of the diving season, so the speakers have new stories to tell, but at LIDS, not much additional diving has been done and many of the speakers are regurgitating the speaches they did in Birmingham. I wanted to see Monty Halls but it was packed, though it sounds like he did the same presentation that he did in Birmingham.

It would have to be spectacular to get me to spend another 3.5 hours getting there when I could be diving in that time. I can make Brum in just over an hour. Perhaps they need to either reduce the stand costs or change to just one show. Apparently in Europe the shows there tend to either be free entry for customers or free for exhibitors. Either way can help boost attendance as free entry will bring more folk through the door or free stands mean that the exhibitors can give discounts on stock, but typical UK the organisers try to get a double hit.

Arfie

 

[Attilauk]

i thought i would drag this thread back up

i have a HSE Commercial SCUBA ticket, i did all my training in the balmy waters of Plymouth Sound and the surrounding coastline although i haven't dived for a couple of years now.

to be fair i have had some incredible dives in those waters, including swimming with a 4m long Basking Shark and playing with a very large Conger Eel.

i keep getting tempted to do a crossover course but im unsure of which qualification to go for. my ticket is roughly equivalent to PADI Rescue Diver and im unsure of the BSAC equivalent.

 

[Arfie]

Dunno owt about the HSE qualification, but if you are equivalent to Rescue Diver (that's really Advanced Open Water with the rescue skills added on) you are likely to be BSAC Sport Diver.

Unless you intend to do further training, I probably doesn't matter which you do if any. The PADI cert card is more recognised around the world if you want to dive abroad with a dive centre. But if you intend to dive regularly in the UK, I'd say join a BSAC club, they dive regularly and will include all further training in your annual fees, whereas PADI charge you for everything separatley (including about £70 to be taught how to fire an SMB!).

Arfie

 

[andywg]

i thought i would drag this thread back up

i have a HSE Commercial SCUBA ticket, i did all my training in the balmy waters of Plymouth Sound and the surrounding coastline although i haven't dived for a couple of years now.

to be fair i have had some incredible dives in those waters, including swimming with a 4m long Basking Shark and playing with a very large Conger Eel.

i keep getting tempted to do a crossover course but im unsure of which qualification to go for. my ticket is roughly equivalent to PADI Rescue Diver and im unsure of the BSAC equivalent.

If you look on the BSAC SALT (Statement of Alternative Learning) table you will see that the HSE cross over as Sports Diver. This would mean that:

1) For now you would carry on diving to the limits of your current qualification within the club
2) If you decided to continue training then you would be given an equivalence to a Sprts Diver (though you would have to cover anything that is covered in Sports Diver and not in your HSE qual) and would commence training as a Dive Leader.

I will echo ARfie in that if you just want to dive abroad in resorts then PADI will do fine, if you want to dive regularly in the UK then BSAC is far better equipped, especially at Dive Leader where you start to lear chartwork and tides and such (though I am unusre how much of that, if any, would have been covered on a commie course).

 

[Attilauk]

cheers for the advice guys, i can't see myself diving in other countries any time soon so i think the BSAC option is probably best for me

especially at Dive Leader where you start to lear chartwork and tides and such (though I am unusre how much of that, if any, would have been covered on a commie course).

chartwork, tides and dive planning are essential parts of the HSE commercial scuba qualification although 'dive leadership' as such isn't covered too much as its assumed everyone diving is of a competent standard. i must admit i find that chart a touch amusing, it classes HSE closed bell (diving at 100+ metres on trimix gas) as a similar level to PADI rescue diver...

 

[Arfie]

That will simply be because although the HSE will have far superior deco and gas skills, itwill be lacking some of the "required" skills for the next level with either BSAC or PADI. I would guess that that with both agencies and many others, it's becaue the next level of recreational diving incorporates leadership skills, which I'm guessing the HSE quals don't have.

BSAC and PADI don't crossover equally either. I am PADI AOW, but haven't done the rescue. I am qualified to go down to 30m, but no deco at all, I've not been trained in line laying or smb deployment, so if I crossover to BSAC I am actually barely qualified as Ocean Diver, which is only to 20m similar to PADI open water. If I do Rescue Diver, I can crossover as a Sport Diver but I would have rescue skills far superior to a Sport Diver and from what I understand from people who have done both, more advanced than the Dive Leader from BSAC.

Nitrox is another anomoly, I've done the PADI nitrox course and can use any mix upto 40%, but BSAC upto sport diver IIUC is only 32% or 36%

For what it's worth, I do a bit of UK diving and am seriously considering joining a bsac club, I'm not a badge (qualification) collector, I just want to dive with the odd bit of training if I feel the need or if someone points out problems I may have.

The other main agency that may be of use to you is TDI, they are amongst the best for tech diving including the deeper stuff and wrecks etc (all the loony stuff that Andywg aspires to).

The other real option for you is to just go diving, I've been qualified for over 6 years and managed not to dive in the UK with any organised clubs since I passed my open water (advanced was done in Portugal). I am a member of Yorkshire Divers forum and they have a section for people looking for buddies. They also have numerous members and instructors of various agencies including PADI, BSAC, SAA, SSI, GUE and TDI along with commy divers and ex navy divers who could advise you more about equivalent levels with various agencies. With all due respect to Andy and myself you'd certainly get more knowledgable answers on there from people who have done many thousands of dives compared to us who are relative newbies.
Oh, don't be put off by the "Yorkshire" part, sadly they also let southerners and even foreigners on there too


Arfie

 

[andywg]

BSAC and PADI don't crossover equally either.

With BSAC, there is no "crossover", only an appreciation of alternative training to work out roughly where you should fit in for further training.

I am PADI AOW, but haven't done the rescue. I am qualified to go down to 30m, but no deco at all, I've not been trained in line laying or smb deployment, so if I crossover to BSAC I am actually barely qualified as Ocean Diver, which is only to 20m similar to PADI open water.

Not quite. As mentioned above, you would continue to dive on your PADI qualification (and thus to 30m), but if you wanted to progress in BSAC training you would be treated as if you were an Ocean Diver and thus commence training at the Sports Diver level after a quick run through of anything in OD you might have missed (as I did with my PADI OW).

If I do Rescue Diver, I can crossover as a Sport Diver but I would have rescue skills far superior to a Sport Diver and from what I understand from people who have done both, more advanced than the Dive Leader from BSAC.

But there is far more to DL than rescue. You would have zero decompression experience, for example. DL should not be considered a next step in a diver's training for diving, but rather for managing other divers. The true BSAC diver progression would be:

OD -> SD - > Advanced Nitrox SDC - > Extended Range Diver SDC - > Sports Mixed Gas Diver SDC - > Advanced Mixed Gas Diver SDC

The above gives you the ability to use hypoxic trimix down to 80 metres (so 20m less than the TDI advanced trimix diver).

Nitrox is another anomoly, I've done the PADI nitrox course and can use any mix upto 40%, but BSAC upto sport diver IIUC is only 32% or 36%

I think 27% is included as well, but that is without taking a nitrox course. Take the advanced or mixed nitrox SDC (soon to be the only nitrox course as basic nitrox is covered in OD and SD now) and you can use any mix up to 50% (but no accelerated decompression).

 

[Arfie]

BSAC and PADI don't crossover equally either.

With BSAC, there is no "crossover", only an appreciation of alternative training to work out roughly where you should fit in for further training.

Yes there is crossover, it's just that BSAC marketing dept call it SALT If I change agencies and decide NOT to continue training, as AOW I will be classed as OD without ever doing the course, so I will have crossed over at a grade I haven't actually completed, hence crossover or SALT if you've bought into it all  If you still aren't convinced there is crossover HERE is the BSAC Crossover Information Page

I am PADI AOW, but haven't done the rescue. I am qualified to go down to 30m, but no deco at all, I've not been trained in line laying or smb deployment, so if I crossover to BSAC I am actually barely qualified as Ocean Diver, which is only to 20m similar to PADI open water.

Not quite. As mentioned above, you would continue to dive on your PADI qualification (and thus to 30m), but if you wanted to progress in BSAC training you would be treated as if you were an Ocean Diver and thus commence training at the Sports Diver level after a quick run through of anything in OD you might have missed (as I did with my PADI OW).

I know I can dive on my PADI quals (If the DO is happy to allow that, if not, he can refuse), but the point I am making to someone who hasn't done either is that the 2 main agencies are not level, the first level of PADI (OW) isn't equal to the first level of BSAC (OD) nor is the second. And it happens the other way around to, a Sport Diver is classed by BSAC as above my AOW, but if a SD crosses over to PADI, they will only be OW unless they have over 20 logged dives in which case it's AOW.

If I do Rescue Diver, I can crossover as a Sport Diver but I would have rescue skills far superior to a Sport Diver and from what I understand from people who have done both, more advanced than the Dive Leader from BSAC.

But there is far more to DL than rescue. You would have zero decompression experience, for example. DL should not be considered a next step in a diver's training for diving, but rather for managing other divers. The true BSAC diver progression would be:

But the point I was making is that the rescue skills done in PADI RD are classed as SD level (If I do RD I can crossover as SD, whereas if not I crossover as OD) whereas the skills on RD are better than those done at higher BSAC levels, again showing that the two do not operate on a level playing field. As I said, on YD forum there are many BSAC, SSI and even GUE instructors who feel that the RD is the best rescue course in the industry and are happy to recommend their students do the course, even if they consider the rest of the PADI courses to be inferior.

Nitrox is another anomoly, I've done the PADI nitrox course and can use any mix upto 40%, but BSAC upto sport diver IIUC is only 32% or 36%

I think 27% is included as well, but that is without taking a nitrox course. Take the advanced or mixed nitrox SDC (soon to be the only nitrox course as basic nitrox is covered in OD and SD now) and you can use any mix up to 50% (but no accelerated decompression).

Not as far as I was told when I chatted to the local club, it's 32 & 36 and my mate has just joined them as OW to do the OD training and has been told he will be trained in 32 & 36, but again the point is the two courses differ. Yes you could do the advanced nitrox with BSAC, but I'd prefer to go for TDI AN if I was doing that (not that I have any intention) and have 21-99%.

I'm not picking inter agencies fights here Andy, I'll be joining BSAC soon enough and have no axe to grind with them, I am showing someone new to it all that the two just do not merge. AOW is in reality equal to OD, but with deeper limits, RD is equal to SD but with far superior rescue skills, but still lacks the deco and smb etc.

PADI are the problem because all the other agencies like CMAS, SSI , SAA are very similar at all grades to BSAC, it's just PADI that stick out on their own, but due to their size, I doubt they will ever fall in line to make life easy for the europeans. I'd like BSAC and co to recognise the existing skills formally and just do a top up course, for example they could do the rescue, smb, line laying and deco stuff to get an AOW to SD. After all they are charging me £60 extra "crossover" fee, it'd be nice if they had specific literature and course syllabus for that money. It woud also make it easier and more attractive for more people to join them.

Arfie

 

[andywg]

There is still no true crossover; you do not get a BSAC qualification based on another agency's teachings, merely a guidance for where you should start BSAC training. That may be a pedantic view of the word but it is the opinion of the BSAC council members and various DOs on the BSAC forum.

Not as far as I was told when I chatted to the local club, it's 32 & 36 and my mate has just joined them as OW to do the OD training and has been told he will be trained in 32 & 36, but again the point is the two courses differ. Yes you could do the advanced nitrox with BSAC, but I'd prefer to go for TDI AN if I was doing that (not that I have any intention) and have 21-99%.

Ah, I misunderstood you. For OD it is 32 or 36 on air tables. For SD it is at least 27, 32 or 36 on BSAC nitrox tables though I have a feeling it may be anything in between 21 and 36. I thought (as we were discussing crossing towards the SD level) that you meant the SD nitrox level hence my added in bit on the 27%.

While I touch on tables, if anyone ever quotes the "tables are far more conservative than computers line" at you, try comparing a square profile 30m dive for 33minutes on a computer and the BSAC 88s. The tables come up with something like 3 minutes at 6m stops, the VR3 throws in a 2:40 deep stop at 18m and about 12-18minutes at 6m. I had heard the 88s were aggressive, but that seems crazy...

I am tempted by the TDI route, but for the cost of me doing that I could easily do advanced nitrox and extended range diving SDCs which have me in the same place (well, slightly further as the ERD gives accelerated deco which is a separate TDI course and more money).

But the point I was making is that the rescue skills done in PADI RD are classed as SD level (If I do RD I can crossover as SD, whereas if not I crossover as OD) whereas the skills on RD are better than those done at higher BSAC levels, again showing that the two do not operate on a level playing field. As I said, on YD forum there are many BSAC, SSI and even GUE instructors who feel that the RD is the best rescue course in the industry and are happy to recommend their students do the course, even if they consider the rest of the PADI courses to be inferior.

Having been a member of YD for a while, I am aware of this too Also, being a member of a club with BSAC, TDI, SAA and rebreather instructors, I am all too aware of how good and respected the PADI RD course is, but you almost seemed to be claiming that it was bad that a PADI RD is only given SD equivalence because one aspect of diving (rescue) is equivalent to a higher level, despite fully knowing that many other elements are omitted.

I'm not picking inter agencies fights here Andy, I'll be joining BSAC soon enough and have no axe to grind with them, I am showing someone new to it all that the two just do not merge. AOW is in reality equal to OD, but with deeper limits, RD is equal to SD but with far superior rescue skills, but still lacks the deco and smb etc.

Nor I, and I am also pointing out that things are different. You seemed to be upset that you won't be able to dive past 20m as a BSAC diver when in reality your PADI limit of 30m will be respected in a club and thus you will be allowed to hit that level. This confused me somewhat so I thought I would make it clear that one can join BSAC and do the same diving they are used to.

I dare say a sat diver could do sat dives in a BSAC club so long as he could bring all the necessary gear to satisfy safe diving principles...

I'd like BSAC and co to recognise the existing skills formally and just do a top up course, for example they could do the rescue, smb, line laying and deco stuff to get an AOW to SD.

Many people wish that too. There is much debate on how the SALT system could be tweaked to be very good at grabbing PADI divers that want to join BSAC, especially to allow a "short course" to bring PADI DM up to BSAC DL deco standards. Mind you, once you are doing the bits covered in SD that aren't (or might not be) covered in AOW you aren't far off doing the whole qualification (rescue, smb, dsmb, distance line, decompression, gas planning, partial pressures, nitrox use).

After all they are charging me £60 extra "crossover" fee, it'd be nice if they had specific literature and course syllabus for that money. It woud also make it easier and more attractive for more people to join them.

That fee is a club based one. Our club charges no such fee. The only standard fee charged by BSAC is the £47 per year. Any other costs are down to the individual club.

I will agree again though, some form of more formal crossover with a pack of some sort would be nice, though I understand that once you begin training for the next level you should get something which tells you the bits you have "missed" in previous BSAC quals. Not massively important when entering SD, but important for the DM that starts AD.

 

[Arfie]

There is still no true crossover; you do not get a BSAC qualification based on another agency's teachings, merely a guidance for where you should start BSAC training. That may be a pedantic view of the word but it is the opinion of the BSAC council members and various DOs on the BSAC forum.

Very much a pendants view If I join BSAC now and decide not to further my trianing I can, after a lecture apply for an equivalency card. So after a lecture I can get a BSAC qualification without a single dive. Call it what you want, but I still get a qualification card for a grade without getting wet, that's a crossover whichever name you want to call it.

you almost seemed to be claiming that it was bad that a PADI RD is only given SD equivalence because one aspect of diving (rescue) is equivalent to a higher level, despite fully knowing that many other elements are omitted.

No, not at all, simply pointing out how the levels do not match, I don't regard SD as a level personally, I treat it as a separate thing, like the other PADI specialities, they are not equivalent to any level at any agency.

You seemed to be upset that you won't be able to dive past 20m as a BSAC diver when in reality your PADI limit of 30m will be respected in a club and thus you will be allowed to hit that level. This confused me somewhat so I thought I would make it clear that one can join BSAC and do the same diving they are used to.

Well technically (my turn to be a pedant) not, if the DO decides otherwise, he can completely disregard my PADI qualifications. In the real world though, yes I can.

After all they are charging me £60 extra "crossover" fee, it'd be nice if they had specific literature and course syllabus for that money. It woud also make it easier and more attractive for more people to join them.

That fee is a club based one. Our club charges no such fee. The only standard fee charged by BSAC is the £47 per year. Any other costs are down to the individual club.

I will agree again though, some form of more formal crossover with a pack of some sort would be nice, though I understand that once you begin training for the next level you should get something which tells you the bits you have "missed" in previous BSAC quals. Not massively important when entering SD, but important for the DM that starts AD.

That's the biggest problem with the club system, they can add what they want and it's not standardised, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth to be charged £60 for basically nothing. I firmly believe that for someone wanting to dive regularly in the UK, that the BSAC model is the way to go, I just wish they'd make it simpler and more attractive to get already qualified divers on board.


In the mean time I continue to dive as I always have (poorly )

Arfie