Another Wipe Out... :-(

[livelifelow]

Not trying to blame anyone, but how old are your children?  Is there any chance that they could have wanted to feed the fish and perhaps overfed to the point of excess?  That would account for a spike and possibly cloudy water.  Just a thought.

 

[SimpleDog]

Not trying to blame anyone, but how old are your children?  Is there any chance that they could have wanted to feed the fish and perhaps overfed to the point of excess?  That would account for a spike and possibly cloudy water.  Just a thought.

Could also account for what looks like exploded tummies on the fish in the first picture.

 

[l_l_l]

yeah.. exploded tummy is quite strange indeed...

One lesson I learned quickly; dont trust all your lfs tells you.

 

[rms]

Was there anything on top of the container that held the ceramic rings? If not, is it possible that fly spray, air freshener or similar could have gotten in?
 
The raised nitrite indicates an ammonia spike.

 
I'm certain there were no contaminants as we don't use air sprays of any kind, and there was nothing on top.
 
Seems it all points to the changes of media though. Interestingly the water is very clear and remains so after the change. Bacterial blooms generally last a lot longer and water becomes very cloudy, very quickly again.
 
My hands are held out with big question marks in each palm at the end, but I have at least learned some things from it.....

Not trying to blame anyone, but how old are your children?  Is there any chance that they could have wanted to feed the fish and perhaps overfed to the point of excess?  That would account for a spike and possibly cloudy water.  Just a thought.

 
No that's an understandable possibility. The kids were dropped off to school and child care in the morning when the fish were fine. Not a possibility. Plus I had a very serious word with the one capable of such things some time ago when he decided to play with the seringes for my ammonia test kit. Not a bad word, just painted a very grey picture of what happens when you play with chemicals and fish and fish food and things like hospitals and childrens wards and fish death. My, that does sound aweful, but lets just say he was frightened in a very healthy way...

 

[KirkyArcher]

I think your feeding up to 6 times a day is responsible for the high nitrates, absolutely no need, even if the fish are consuming it all in a short space of time will just result in loads of poo, creating more ammonia more nitrites (which your media may have handled sufficiently and converted into high nitrate values.

 

[rms]

I think your feeding up to 6 times a day is responsible for the high nitrates, absolutely no need, even if the fish are consuming it all in a short space of time will just result in loads of poo, creating more ammonia more nitrites (which your media may have handled sufficiently and converted into high nitrate values.

 
Thanks for the input Probably not the right time to get into a feeding debate, but lets just say I have my reasons for doing this and I have fed like this for over 4 months, some times 5 days a week and it's never caused a problem so far.. Some agree, others not. I'll post in 'tropical chit chat at some point and we can have a healthy debate there
 
CO2 and EI are quite a recent addition though, which do increase nitrates as well. Perhaps there are a few reasons combined for the wipe out. 

 

[SimpleDog]

 

I think your feeding up to 6 times a day is responsible for the high nitrates, absolutely no need, even if the fish are consuming it all in a short space of time will just result in loads of poo, creating more ammonia more nitrites (which your media may have handled sufficiently and converted into high nitrate values.

 
Thanks for the input

Probably not the right time to get into a feeding debate, but lets just say I have my reasons for doing this and I have fed like this for over 4 months, some times 5 days a week and it's never caused a problem so far.. Some agree, others not. I'll post in 'tropical chit chat at some point and we can have a healthy debate there

 
CO2 and EI are quite a recent addition though, which do increase nitrates as well. Perhaps there are a few reasons combined for the wipe out. 
 

No offense, but if this has never cause a problem before, why do you have a cloudy tank with a 90% mortality, and 3 fish with noticeably open tummies? I know you don't want to get into a debate about it, but some of these member do know what they are talking about. If it is to ensure al your stock get fed, then rthink your stocking as some of your fish are obviously suffering for it. You can keep a jewel cichlid in a tropical tank for month without issue. The jewel will eventually kill everything. I know this because I was naive and thought, oh the Jewel has been doing well for months. One day, Columbine, fishtank style.

 

[l_l_l]

I'm with rms on feeding often but small quantities. I have some tetras that are eating all leaving the other tetras without food..

 

[KirkyArcher]

No offence taken, "Another wipe out! You're fish are dying, you have high (lethal) nitrate levels, I've given you a reason that would be the cause these high nitrates,

 

[Blondielovesfish]

What is your tap water level of nitrate?

 

[DerpPH]

what a situation. sad to see another wipeout after the feeding wipeout

 

[CrimsonBoli]

Your before and after Nitrate's are too high. Also are you using enough Prime
(Personally I dont like prime as it 'removes' some ammonia NO3 and NO2, which is the filters job... STOP starving the filter Seachem!)

Also are you having PH swings
(Might be worth talking about Carbonic Acid and PH swings)

 

[rms]

I'm with rms on feeding often but small quantities. I have some tetras that are eating all leaving the other tetras without food..

 
My neons act very differently on days when I feed like this. They explore and shoal more, they're more alert and for me they generally seem more happy.
 
 

No offence taken, "Another wipe out! You're fish are dying, you have high (lethal) nitrate levels, I've given you a reason that would be the cause these high nitrates,

 
Any suggestions as to the cause are appreciated. Right or wrong they can only provide myself and others with more knowledge, as long as they are properly considered and agreed with or ruled out The reason I don't think it's the feeding is because 4 months is long enough for any negative effect to start having an impact. I haven't had any problems with nitrates before this happened and the fact that it happened immediately after I made a couple changes in my weekly tank maintenance... If anything my nitrates were too low considering I am EI dosing, at least according to someone who helped me out with plant growth a week ago.
 
 

What is your tap water level of nitrate?

 
It's very low. 5
 
 

Your before and after Nitrate's are too high. Also are you using enough Prime
(Personally I dont like prime as it 'removes' some ammonia NO3 and NO2, which is the filters job... STOP starving the filter Seachem!)
Also are you having PH swings
(Might be worth talking about Carbonic Acid and PH swings)

 
I worked out the Prime dosing based on 5ml per 200 litres. I divided 12 (litres in one bucket) into 200 and then that answer divided by 5. It comes to 3.32, which I calculated to be the amount required per 12 litres. Moving the decimal to the left by one. I do dose just over .3ml.
 
I haven't payed much attention to pH to be honest. Last time I checked it before yesterday was about a week ago. It was 6.9 and tested after co2 went off in the evening. I have checked it in the past morning and night and it was quite consistantly between 6.8 and 7.4, evening and morning respectively. pH is something I don't fully understand in how to control, but these parameters are fine for the fish and plants I keep. My water is naturally very hard so I have a srong buffer to keep swings at bay; KH 5, GH 143.2 (API liquid tests). As I am running a tank with a broad tolerance of pH and a good buffer I thought this would be ok to neglect until I understand this area more.
 
After your comment above I read some information regarding the relationship between phosphates and pH. I still can't quite get my head around it, but I have recently been adding API Prevent Algae. My understanding is phosphates bind with the buffers and make them ineffective, so was this a good move in further reducing pH swings? Further reading has uncovered the importance of keeping my substrate nice and clean in relation to pH swings. I have to say I've been neglecting this on purpose, believing my plants would be needing the waste. I clean up where there are no plants, but leave some waste behind. However, since my plants have been doing quite badly perhaps that waste hasn't been put to good use. That goes some way back to what KirkyArcher said. Maybe not over feeding, but waste not being cleaned up or used by the plants. Would go some way in explaining a pH swing....
 
I am a little overwhelmed to be honest. Seems there could be a few reasons, but my mind always returns to the the fact that I put some old media back in my tank....
 
I tested ammonia, nitrite and nitrate again yesterday and today. Yesterday was 0, 0, 10. Today 0, 0, 25. 

 

[KirkyArcher]

Nitrate is still a toxic substance to fish, anything approaching 60-100ppm will have a very negative effect on your fish stocks health.  If you think your El dosing is responsible for your high N03 you are obviously overdoing things for the amount of plants/foliage you have, also you say your C02 is also very high "green and yellow"  that I would estimate will put your actual ph at about 6.7  you must also consider/give priority you fishes welfare in the tank and not just the plants

 

[CrimsonBoli]

 

I'm with rms on feeding often but small quantities. I have some tetras that are eating all leaving the other tetras without food..

 
My neons act very differently on days when I feed like this. They explore and shoal more, they're more alert and for me they generally seem more happy.
 
 

No offence taken, "Another wipe out! You're fish are dying, you have high (lethal) nitrate levels, I've given you a reason that would be the cause these high nitrates,

 
Any suggestions as to the cause are appreciated. Right or wrong they can only provide myself and others with more knowledge, as long as they are properly considered and agreed with or ruled out

The reason I don't think it's the feeding is because 4 months is long enough for any negative effect to start having an impact. I haven't had any problems with nitrates before this happened and the fact that it happened immediately after I made a couple changes in my weekly tank maintenance... If anything my nitrates were too low considering I am EI dosing, at least according to someone who helped me out with plant growth a week ago.
 
 

What is your tap water level of nitrate?

 
It's very low. 5
 
 

Your before and after Nitrate's are too high. Also are you using enough Prime
(Personally I dont like prime as it 'removes' some ammonia NO3 and NO2, which is the filters job... STOP starving the filter Seachem!)
Also are you having PH swings
(Might be worth talking about Carbonic Acid and PH swings)

 
I worked out the Prime dosing based on 5ml per 200 litres. I divided 12 (litres in one bucket) into 200 and then that answer divided by 5. It comes to 3.32, which I calculated to be the amount required per 12 litres. Moving the decimal to the left by one. I do dose just over .3ml.
 
I haven't payed much attention to pH to be honest. Last time I checked it before yesterday was about a week ago. It was 6.9 and tested after co2 went off in the evening. I have checked it in the past morning and night and it was quite consistantly between 6.8 and 7.4, evening and morning respectively. pH is something I don't fully understand in how to control, but these parameters are fine for the fish and plants I keep. My water is naturally very hard so I have a srong buffer to keep swings at bay; KH 5, GH 143.2 (API liquid tests). As I am running a tank with a broad tolerance of pH and a good buffer I thought this would be ok to neglect until I understand this area more.
 
After your comment above I read some information regarding the relationship between phosphates and pH. I still can't quite get my head around it, but I have recently been adding API Prevent Algae. My understanding is phosphates bind with the buffers and make them ineffective, so was this a good move in further reducing pH swings? Further reading has uncovered the importance of keeping my substrate nice and clean in relation to pH swings. I have to say I've been neglecting this on purpose, believing my plants would be needing the waste. I clean up where there are no plants, but leave some waste behind. However, since my plants have been doing quite badly perhaps that waste hasn't been put to good use. That goes some way back to what KirkyArcher said. Maybe not over feeding, but waste not being cleaned up or used by the plants. Would go some way in explaining a pH swing....
 
I am a little overwhelmed to be honest. Seems there could be a few reasons, but my mind always returns to the the fact that I put some old media back in my tank....
 
I tested ammonia, nitrite and nitrate again yesterday and today. Yesterday was 0, 0, 10. Today 0, 0, 25. 
 

 
I agree with you about some aspects of water chemistry are a bit overwhelming. And the added complexity of CO2 addition in the planted tank which is why I wont do a gas CO2 system (different convo about liquid carbon)
Also I read somewhere that big PH swings can kill beneficial bacteria due to harsh changes in the water parameters... 
 
Is it a heavily planted tank? If not there are plenty of people with moderately planted tanks with no additions of CO2 (Dustin from Dustins fish tanks is probably the best known non-CO2 planted tank keeper)