Another Honey Gourami Gender Question ...

[Birdie]

I have three honey gouramis - they have been in my tank for ten days. I did ask for a male and two females - but I realise they are tricky to sex.....

When they arrived, all three of them had the dark line from eye-level to caudal fin. Now none of them do. They all get more colourful every time I look at them - so now I have gone from wondering if they are all female to wondering if they are all male

One of them - the smallest - I am pretty sure is male. He is the most colourful, has a definitley-pointy dorsal fin, and a rapidly darkening belly/fin.

The other two are less obvious. Both of them, as I said, have pretty-much lost the dark lateral stripe - but it is a little more obvious on one fish. Both are getting more colourful, and seem to be getting darker ventral fins, although not quite as obviously as the boy. However, they both have less pointy dorsal fins than the one I am sure is male. On the other hand, I don't have much to compare them with, so what would I know?

I understand, having read other threads that females do not *always* have the dark eye-to tail stripe. Do they ever have dark bellies? What about just a darker ventral fin?

One of the s/he fish keeps chasing the little v colourful one - the one I am certain is male and poking at him with his/her feelers (rays? ) No nipping that I've seen so far. But I don't want a stressed fish. Or a dead one, come to that.

Is the fact that they are getting more and more colourful any indication at all that they are not too stressed - or is this utterly unreliable?

Should I consider returning one sooner rather than later? Wait and see until gender becomes easier to tell?

Is it just jostling for position, that will settle down when pecking order is established? Or is it likely to escalate?

Or breeding behaviour, possibly? ( but I'm wondering if they are all too juvenile for that)

The thing is, would a female harass a male like that - or do I almost certainly have more than one male, in which case, I do have a problem, don't I?

Or am I just *wrong* about the small, most colourful, pointy-finned one being male in the first place

The tank is 20g, long, with lots of tall plants, floating plants, bogwood, caves. Other inhabitants 4 cories and 5 guppies.

I spent about two hours trying to photograph the little blighters - they are too fast, and I am too rubbish <sigh>. I just ended up deleting about fifty useless pictures that were neither use nor ornament. The only two that were of any help at all were of the fish that I am most certain about

That's a lot of questions , and if you are still reading, I thank you

 

[sylvia]

Lol - that post made me smile

Firstly, yes, a black ventral area means male - never (at least IME) female. I'm not sure what you mean by a dark ventral fin though... do you mean a darker 'feeler' (those are the ventral fins BTW) or do you mean a darker belly? It really would help if you could post a pic But as someone who is undoubtedly many times worse off when it comes to taking photos, I sympathise with you.

You are also right that not all female have the dark stripe and certainly all immature fish do. Many lose it later in life though the majority of females retain it. It matters whether you have the wild color morph or not though. The gold honey morph, for example, lacks the stripe usually - even the females.

Coloring up is a good sign - they are healthy and mature. However, it doesn't necesarily mean they are not stressed.

Having said that, if the fish receiving/dealing out aggression are not actually getting into serious fights, you can afford to wait a little longer until positive identification of the sexes is possible.

Yes, females will chase smaller males. Eventualy, however, the male will bite back This usually happens when he overtakes the girls in size though - so it could be a while.

If you do have two males, returning one would be a good idea.

What I'd suggest right now is a little rearanging of the tank to buy you time. Hopefuly they will be easier to sex soon. If the aggression continues or gets worse and you still don't know, consider returning both of the questionable females and replacing them with two more mature ones from your LFS. Obviously, if they don't stock older ones, this isn't an option so you may just need to swap the more aggressive individual with a new 'female' and hope you got the sex right this time.

BTW, the aggression could indeed just be them settling a hierarchy and that would settle a little eventualy. But, again, if you have two males, you'll only be getting more trouble in the long run even if this remporarily subsides.

Breeding behaviour is possible but the male shouldn't be the one being picked on. If he is in breeding colors and the smallest, I'd assume they are all mature enough to spawn by now.

 

[Birdie]

Sylvia, thank you so much for your very helpful reply

do you mean a darker 'feeler' (those are the ventral fins BTW) or do you mean a darker belly?

I think I actually mean the anal fin. I thought I did, and that the "feelers" were the ventral fins, but then had a crisis of confidence, decided to look it up in a book - and the one I used had an illustration of a gourami, with an arrow pointing to the anal fin, and calling it a ventral fin. Pah! That's my excuse anyway anyway, the fin I am talking about is the one that is darker in

the one on the right, here

That is the one that is darkening in all three of mine to a greater or lesser extent - but only with the smallest has the colour started encroaching on the actual body, as opposed to finnage. If only males have the dark ventral area on the body *and* fin - do females ever have dark anal fins only ( with the body remaining the bronzy-honey colour)


The colouring of the fish generally looks to be heading towards the fish in the picture I linked to above ( which you posted in another thread - so thank you) . They all started off looking pretty much like the pictures I have seen of the wild colour morph, in terms of that lovely, subtle pale bronzey, um, honey colour. The brighter hues seem to be spreading from the tail and edges inwards (tails definitely didn't look like that ten days ago)

I include some terrible pictures for your amusement

I will keep a close eye on things - off to rearrange some rocks now

Thank you again

 

[sylvia]

Those aren't the same fish are they?!

The black edging means you've got males And, yeah, that's the anal fin.

BTW, if you aren't planning on breeding, you could always get a couple more males to spread out any aggression and the 5 should be able to coexist in your 20 gallon that way (with only 3 you might have trouble - though you can always just exchange two for 'females' and hope you're luckier this time round ).

 

[Birdie]

Well, all has become clear now - definitely two males and one female. No doubting it .

At the moment the two males don't really seem to take much notice of one another - but I am guessing that this will change, so accept that I must try and rehome one ( anyone in Essex want a free, pretty, male honey gourami ?)

Right now it is the girl who is a bit of a feisty old moo - she seems to have an especial disdain for one boy in particular . Maybe he is just too much in her territory - she does seem to have laid claim to one bit of the tank (the bit with the most food ). Although I do have to add that no-one is remotely going hungry, and the "aggression" is very low-key. Irritation, more than aggression, really. It would seem obvious then to rehome the one that annoys her.

Will the remaining two actually be OK as a simple pair? I know that pearls are much better as a trio - are honeys the same? Would it be OK to watch and wait?

 

[sylvia]

It would be fine to watch and wait. It doesn't sound like the aggression is anything serious anyway. It's only really a matter of time before the female's dominance comes into question though. Males grow larger than females and soon take over that role. A trio is best but, if they look peaceful to you, a pair would be fine as their size means they can easily lose each other in a 20 gallon if necessary.

 

[Birdie]

Thank you again, Sylvia - as helpful as ever

There are plenty of places to hide out in the tank, so I think I will indeed rehome one male, and then watch and wait.

I'm sure madam will get a taste of her own medicine eventually

 

[Birdie]

I took one of the males back to the lfs ( actually, the one she *hadn't* been chasing as he was the only one I could catch ) As it happens I replaced him with a small shoal of celebes rainbows ( Oops, you know how it is )

Well, what a difference a day makes.

Immediately the second boy departed, Ms Feistyface stopped chasing her remaining suitor (not that either male had previously had a chance to do much suiting) . They now exist in perfect harmony, and can even be spotted hanging out in the same clump of floating plants. No more chasing, and what is more, he instantly got about six shades more colourful. He has *definitely* got his dancing trousers on .

Interestingly, the Rainbows made a huge difference to the general demeanour of the tank. I already had some guppies to act as dither fish for the gouramies - and they had made the gouramies a lot more confident as soon as I added them. However, they plainly weren't dithery *enough* because the minute the rainbows went in, both the honeys and the cories all came out to play, and have been much more visible .