Angelfish

[Shushan]

Hi

I have two angelfish, both between 4-5 month old. Venom (marble) is the largest at about 3.5inches, Rocky is 3inches. Recently, they have been twitching and shaking at each other.

I am unable to tell of if is a mating or a dominance thing as I am unable to confidently sex the two, I think they are both males.

I have attached pics, what's peoples thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Byron]

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking two males on their own are not likely to co-exist for long. Each will determine his territory, and the other will not be welcome. A group of five or more is always recommended (assuming sufficient tank space) so this can play out more naturally with the fish establishing their hierarch within the group--again, there are exceptions. If a pair should form, then real trouble begins.

If these are both female, that is usually less of a problem. If they are a male/female pair, could work or may not. These fish must select their mates and bond if long-term success is intended. But there are again exceptions to either.

I cannot see breeding tubes on either fish (that is one way to tell gender). Their interaction over time is a good indicator of gender--usually. Other methods like head shape is said by most to be unreliable.

 

[Avel1896]

Hey @Shushan
Your tank measurements and set up are ?

 

[Shushan]

Hey @Shushan
Your tank measurements and set up are ?

Hi, it's a 252l and been set up for just over 6 month.

Have the two angels and two electric blue rams and 5 black widow. 5 venezuelan cory, 4 peppered and 4 stebai. 2 plecos

 

[Avel1896]

Hi, it's a 252l and been set up for just over 6 month.

Have the two angels and two electric blue rams and 5 black widow. 5 venezuelan cory, 4 peppered and 4 stebai. 2 plecos

Sorry to say this, but 250 litre isn't enough at all for Angels even young. They are territorial and aggressive fishes.
Ramirezi are also territorial and often turn highly protector when spawning.
This could all go bad.
I encourage you to rehouse your Angels, keeping in mind they will grow 7 x 9 inches.... and need according to me, 500 litres for 2 Angels.

 

[Shushan]

I have another 252l and I will move one once the tank is ready, possibly no choice if they are both males.

Wish it was easier to sex them, can see a slight breeding tube on both, both pointy and small but assuming they may change as the fish grow and mature

 

[kribensis12]

Sorry to say this, but 250 litre isn't enough at all for Angels even young. They are territorial and aggressive fishes.
Ramirezi are also territorial and often turn highly protector when spawning.
This could all go bad.

I would disagree here.

Most literature that I have read over the years indicates that a 55g tank is the minimum and 250L is a 66g tank.

It's hard to know how the rams would interact with the angels if the rams spawned, but I suspect with good ground cover they'd be fine.

 

[Avel1896]

Most literature that I have read over the years indicates that a 55g tank is the minimum and 250L is a 66g tank.

So we didn't read the same litterature I always consider ADULT SIZE. I keep on saying 250 litre isn't enough.

It's hard to know how the rams would interact with the angels if the rams spawned, but I suspect with good ground cover they'd be fine.

So let's take the least risk

 

[DoubleDutch]

I agree with the fact that Angels are often kept in too small tanks, but 500 litre for 2 Angels is kind of extreme to me.

 

[Byron]

I agree. A 250 liter/60+ gallon tank is fine for a pair of angelfish--provided they are a bonded pair. Unfortunately, there are significant issues here with the selection of species, and one such issue is temperature.

Any variety of the common or blue ram, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, must have warm water, above 80F/27C, so that immediately limits options.

Angelfish can do well in this warmth, though commercially-raised fish (which the varieties will always be) can do well at more normal "tropical" temperatures.

No species of Corydoras should be kept this warm on a permanent basis.

The Black Widow/Skirt Tetra, Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, should not be kept this warm. And, they are not suitable with sedate fish like angelfish. And in this small a group (five) they are much more likely to increase their natural fin-nipping q(aggressive) behaviour.

 

[kribensis12]

So we didn't read the same litterature I always consider ADULT SIZE. I keep on saying 250 litre isn't enough.


So let's take the least risk

I guess I'm just curious where you have read that 250L is too small? The 55g recommendation is intended for full grown angelfish, as they prefer to be in groups of 6 or more.

Most websites that I have read and breeders that I have spoken to (Tolak, former mod of TFF, used to breed angels) have stated that a 55g is the minimum tank size for 5-6 angelfish. Obviously it's never a bad idea to have an even larger tank, but I don't believe that @Shushan is doing anything wrong here.

Angels and Rams are typically recommended combination due to portions of the tank that they mainly live in and similar water requirements, but it's true that they don't (to my knowledge) coexist together in the wild frequently as rams prefer shallow, slow moving rivers. When you introduce two fish that do not naturally co-exist, you are taking a risk, but I would wager in this scenario that it's unlikely to be problematic. I would be more concerned with the corries being near a breeding pair of rams than I would larger sized angelfish IMHO.

 

[ghyti]

Sorry to say this, but 250 litre isn't enough at all for Angels even young. They are territorial and aggressive fishes.
Ramirezi are also territorial and often turn highly protector when spawning.
This could all go bad.
I encourage you to rehouse your Angels, keeping in mind they will grow 7 x 9 inches.... and need according to me, 500 litres for 2 Angels.

I have to disagree with this also. General rule of thumb for adult angels is 10 gallons per angel. A 66 gallon tank is plenty big enough for 2 angels and probably plenty big enough for 3 or 4 more.

 

[Avel1896]

I have to disagree with this also. General rule of thumb for adult angels is 10 gallons per angel. A 66 gallon tank is plenty big enough for 2 angels and probably plenty big enough for 3 or 4 more.

Could you provide links I could read about that ?

 

[DoubleDutch]

I agree. A 250 liter/60+ gallon tank is fine for a pair of angelfish--provided they are a bonded pair. Unfortunately, there are significant issues here with the selection of species, and one such issue is temperature.

Any variety of the common or blue ram, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, must have warm water, above 80F/27C, so that immediately limits options.

Angelfish can do well in this warmth, though commercially-raised fish (which the varieties will always be) can do well at more normal "tropical" temperatures.

No species of Corydoras should be kept this warm on a permanent basis.

The Black Widow/Skirt Tetra, Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, should not be kept this warm. And, they are not suitable with sedate fish like angelfish. And in this small a group (five) they are much more likely to increase their natural fin-nipping q(aggressive) behaviour.

Corydoras sterbai?

 

[Byron]

Corydoras sterbai?

C.sterbai, C. dulpicareus, and a few other species are often suggested for discus (= blue ram temperature range) because of the warmer temperatures. I personally don't accept this, and in talking to Ian about temperature he did say that no cory species should be permanently kept at such high temperatures. It would be helpful to have a log of the water temperatures seasonally of rivers and streams, but this would take an immense amount of research and while there is data for some watercourses I doubt there is for many others. And of course there is usually a variance with water depth, and diurnally even if these may not be significant.