Angelfish Shoal Problems

[azvictoria]

I have a 60g tall tank, established, parameters are all good, 1-2x weekly water changes. I have a shoal of 6 angels - got them all at the same time as babies, including my tank pride, a BSP. The BSP is a female, and I know this because it seems that at least 4 of the others are male. She was paired up with a gorgeous blue panda male, then taken over by a yellow marble. It's exhausting for her. Who stays, who goes, what's the best choice here? I want to keep her, and I want her to be healthy and sound. Do I stick with just a pair, let the dominant fighting males go to other homes? I've had a spawning pair before- the male slaughtered the female. I don't want a repeat.

 

[anewbie]

The female will pick her partner; if you don't like her choice you can try removing him and see if she will pick someone else - the rest is my opinion and others have different experience. Some insist that shoals can exist in 55/60 gallon tanks but in my 120 (bit larger); i've had difficulty with anything more than a pair. In my current 120 i currently have 8 angels (3 pairs and 2 extra males). 5 of those angels are now adult off-springs from one of the pairs in the 120 so they grew up together and their parents accepted them when they were reintroduced at around 1 inch. There is constantly bickering but the pairs have been very stable. Of course nearly all the angels now have scars and 'areas' they claim. Feeding is always a mess because of constant dive bombing and threat display even as the more passives of the groups are trying to eat. My advice esp in a 60 go with the pair you want and give the rest to the lfs; but if you are attached to them you can just leave them be and see how they work things out over time.
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Btw i don't understand your comment about the male slaughtering the female. In my group the pairs always work together; and none of the males pick on the females though at times the females will fight with each other.

 

[itiwhetu]

I agree with what is written above in a 60g just one pair. That will give you all the action the tank needs.

 

[Byron]

A 60g tall tank is insufficient space for more than a bonded pair of angelfish. What you have been/are seeing is normal for this species, but unfortunately for them it is playing out in a very small space and that just won't work.

The other thing to understand is that this fish must select its mate and bond. Any female and any male put together may or may not bond. A "pair" that seems to form may or may not last very long. Even if they seem to, and spawn once or twice or even three times, the male may decide at some point that he has had enough of the female and kill her. This was what occurred with your former pair.

If a pair does bond from the present group, removing all the other angelfish is needed. In their habitats this plays out with no losses because they have space to do their own thing, but it takes a very large aquarium to provide anywhere near sufficient space, and even then there is no certainty. The male may, as I said above, suddenly decide he's had it with her, and she won't last long if that happens.

 

[anewbie]

If a pair does bond from the present group, removing all the other angelfish is needed. In their habitats this plays out with no losses because they have space to do their own thing, but it takes a very large aquarium to provide anywhere near sufficient space, and even then there is no certainty. The male may, as I said above, suddenly decide he's had it with her, and she won't last long if that happens.

In my more limited experience i've had more problems with the female dumping the male than the male dumping the female. I also have had more problems with the females 'going for the kill' on unwanted angels where the males seem more content to just drive them away. Of course a 60 is pretty small and much of my experience has been in a 120. Also I've only cycled through 3 sets of angels so i suppose after a few more years and a few more sets I might find some nasty males.

 

[ghyti]

It is very rare for an Angel to kill another one. I have been raising Angels for over ten years and I have never seen it. Males will fight if there is a female around and females will fight if there is a male around. If a pair forms the male will keep all the others away. The female will test the males strength before bonding, and of course there are squabbles over territory and to establish the pecking order. None of which usually result in death. I would not hesitate to keep 5 or 6 Angels in a standard 55 gallon tank, but I don't know the dimensions of your 60 tall. If it is less than 4 ft. I would probably stick with a single pair or 3 or 4 same sex Angels.

 

[azvictoria]

The female will pick her partner; if you don't like her choice you can try removing him and see if she will pick someone else - the rest is my opinion and others have different experience. Some insist that shoals can exist in 55/60 gallon tanks but in my 120 (bit larger); i've had difficulty with anything more than a pair. In my current 120 i currently have 8 angels (3 pairs and 2 extra males). 5 of those angels are now adult off-springs from one of the pairs in the 120 so they grew up together and their parents accepted them when they were reintroduced at around 1 inch. There is constantly bickering but the pairs have been very stable. Of course nearly all the angels now have scars and 'areas' they claim. Feeding is always a mess because of constant dive bombing and threat display even as the more passives of the groups are trying to eat. My advice esp in a 60 go with the pair you want and give the rest to the lfs; but if you are attached to them you can just leave them be and see how they work things out over time.
--
Btw i don't understand your comment about the male slaughtering the female. In my group the pairs always work together; and none of the males pick on the females though at times the females will fight with each other.

Thanks! I had a bonded/spawning pair for years, and one day the male relentlessly attacked the female. He would not leave her alone and battered her fins, etc. She ultimately died of infection despite many efforts and rehoming him. Hopefully and from your experience, that may have been an isolated problem between those two.

 

[anewbie]

Thanks! I had a bonded/spawning pair for years, and one day the male relentlessly attacked the female. He would not leave her alone and battered her fins, etc. She ultimately died of infection despite many efforts and rehoming him. Hopefully and from your experience, that may have been an isolated problem between those two.

I know it is common with other cichlid for males to drive away unresponsive females I just haven't observed it with my angels but my fishes are still young with the eldest only being 2 years old (i had previous batches of angels that didn't work out - these i will be keeping till they die of old ages); so maybe as they age I might see different behavior. So far the females have been making all the decisions in the tank - which i truely find odd since the male is much larger (and stronger). I did have one female that was a real killer. She liked to go for the gills after she backed her opponent into a corner. Didn't much care for her and no longer own her. She was part of the batch before this batch.

 

[azvictoria]

A 60g tall tank is insufficient space for more than a bonded pair of angelfish. What you have been/are seeing is normal for this species, but unfortunately for them it is playing out in a very small space and that just won't work.

The other thing to understand is that this fish must select its mate and bond. Any female and any male put together may or may not bond. A "pair" that seems to form may or may not last very long. Even if they seem to, and spawn once or twice or even three times, the male may decide at some point that he has had enough of the female and kill her. This was what occurred with your former pair.

If a pair does bond from the present group, removing all the other angelfish is needed. In their habitats this plays out with no losses because they have space to do their own thing, but it takes a very large aquarium to provide anywhere near sufficient space, and even then there is no certainty. The male may, as I said above, suddenly decide he's had it with her, and she won't last long if that happens.

Thank you so much! You gave me great advice in the past. I now know what to look for and am well prepared to isolate the male if needed. The others can find good homes.