Angelfish Problem - What Is This Protrusion/postule?

[Colin_T]

Most fish carry the parasites that cause HITH but it doesn't affect them unless something weakens the fish. eg: old age, another disease, poor water quality, some sort of stress related issue. Then the pathogens get out of control and over-run the fish's immune system causing the signs associated with the disease.

It's a bit like when people catch the flu virus, they normally fight it off without a problem. But if the infected person is old or suffers from other ailments (diabetes) then there is a chance the flu virus in conjunction with the other problems will over-run the person's immune system and potentially kill them. Secondary bacterial infections can occur and respiratory problems may coincide to cause serious problems.

But if you're really concerned then take it to a specialist fish vet, or ask emmsy on here what she thinks it is. She is a vet that keeps fish. She might know. Her profile is below.
http/www.fishforums.net/user/41156/View-Member-Profile/

 

[Tolak]

I completely agree with that, but from my experiences the internal protizoans manifest as an internal issue, and with the few fish I have not saved they never manifested as an external form of HITH. I also agree with consulting emmsy, for the short amount of time she has been here she has proven to be quite knowledgeable.

You can also do what I do for tough or confusing situations, contact National Fish Pharmacy through their help line. These folks have been dealing with these sort of situations all day, every day for years, and are a wealth of knowledge. The cost of the call is well worth the education you get.

 

[Colin_T]

For Tolak

I think you probably catch the disease well before it gets a chance to spread and cause more damage. Also most breeders are pretty careful about tank maintenance and hygiene and because they deal with large volumes of fish all the time, they can usually spot a problem well before it becomes an issue. My guess is you can probably spot a water quality issue in your tanks as well just by looking at them

 

[WILDER]

http/www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/hexamita.html

 

[Bloo]

Thank you again everyone. And thank you Wilder for that link (I see that's also what Tolak advised I should check out and contact them) - fantastic and it fits the description down to a T. That's what it looks like and I'm now more certain than even before that is certainly what it is.
I am afraid that I won't be taking my fish to the vet. It's £70 ($140) just for a consultation. That doesn't involve any tests or medications!>!> Insane. I can't afford that.

Tolak, the fish eats like anything no problem. But I have certainly noticed as you mention "and stringy mucosy feces". Unlike it used to be or from my other Angel or fish. So again I'm counting this as a sign towards HITH.
Now, where on earth to get Quinine Sulfate - because it looks like that's what I'll need for external Hexamita. Whereas Metronidazole is used for internal Hexamita.

Question to all with knowledge of this: is it possile to spread to any of my other fish? The only other cichlid I have is another young Angel.

Edit: another behaviour that now springs to mind - it often hides behind a piece of bogwood (it never used to). And at times I don't even notice it in the tank. So I'll count that as another notch towards HITH

I will also mentioned: this fish may have been severely stressed by a third Angel I had. The two remaining ones basically nearly bullied it to death with relentless harassment - until I had to remove the fish and give it to the lfs. Perhaps this added to the stress.

 

[Tolak]

I most often encounter this in potential breeders, who at times are in a stressful situation as pairs are forming, or in dime to nickel size angels, who are in no more of a stressful situation than their tankmates, but will hide & stop eating. Colin may be right that my eye catches this right off, as with potential breeders there is a sort of truce during feeding time, and smaller ones crowd the front of the tank.

The slow eater with the breeders will get target fed, and if there is any hesitation to eat they get pulled & medicated. The same applies to juvies that don't follow the herd, they should all be practically jumping out of the tank to eat.

Internal protozoans rarely show up as HITH in angels, I have yet to see it, other breeders I know have yet to see it. I don't breed angels for a living, I would starve to death, for a professional opinion from someone who does breed for a living you may want to check this out; http/www.angelsplus.com/ArticleCare3.htm

When you add in the hiding, as well as the feces, you may have a case of HITH, with the protozoans as a secondary problem. Stress is a major contributing factor, the aggressiveness received would certainly qualify. The thing I can't see, which are major contributing factors to HITH are poor water quality, and a poor diet. It seems that you are feeding a balanced diet, as well as keeping the maintenance up.

The availability of meds in the UK is something I personally think is a terrible situation. You may do well to contact emmsy, as I'm sure she deals with meds on a very regular basis.

As far as it spreading to other fish, I've never had a whole tank, or even part of a tank, of angels come down with symptoms of internal protozoans at the same time. It is from what I have experienced either a single older fish, or one or perhaps two younger fish.

You may have a case of HITH, though with the quality of care I am tending to doubt this. You also may have a case of protozoans manifesting as HITH, while not seen by me, or other angel enthusiasts, is far from probable. This does not mean it is impossible, and really interests me, as I'm sure it will other aquarists.

 

[emmsy]

Good morning everyone, and wow, what a debate first thing in the morning. I haven't even had my coffee yet, and the words on the screen are a little hazey.
Firstly, can I say that people are throwing the word Metronidazole around as if it is asprin. Metronidazole is a seriously potent concoction, and must be dosed correctly. In is raw form, it is used in dental treatment in humans, and if you take alcohol while taking it, a week long stay in hospital will follow.
Anyway, yes Colin, I'm swaying more to your diagnosis, although I would like to see a scraping under the microscope to be sure.

A paper that was written by Fred Godall & Dougall Stewart springs to mind.

Here is the link to save me writing it all out, Section (4) will give the treatment

[URL="http/www.ukdiscus.co.uk/spironucleus.htm"]http/www.ukdiscus.co.uk/spironucleus.htm[/URL]

Now, Metronidazole soaked meds do exist, but I'm afraid thats where my weak point is. I am not aware of any brands that you can buy off the shelf here in the UK,although I am sure there will be one. Because I am a vet, I have access to the "Good stuff" all the time, so my knowledge of what is on the shelf is somewhat limited.

Metronidazole is available from a vet, although it is a prescribed drug, so a visit to the vet is a must. However, print out and take your photos to the vet, and print out this thread to show you have researched it, and I'm sure the vet will prescribe a small amount to soak in the food.

Hope this helps


Edit: Qtank the angel first to observe the treatment


Emma

 

[Tolak]

Thank you for responding. A scraping is the only way to come close to a correct diagnosis, as would a fecal smear. I have that UK Discus article saved on disk somewhere, at 1am I'm not too ambitious about digging it out.

Part of the original research that is referenced can be found here, and does show a picture of an angel with advanced HITH; http/www.int-res.com/articles/dao/45/d045p197.pdf

I see they base some of their dietary recommendations on Untergasser's book, which anyone interested in the diagnosis of fish diseases should get their hands on. Another one, more oriented towards pharmacology, is Herwig's book.

I'm wondering if in this situation it isn't a chicken or egg thing, in that the HITH may have come first, with the protizoa issue a secondary situation. Perhaps you have seen cases of HITH where the water quality & diet are not a problem, I have yet to see or hear of that. Once again, I do not see it as being impossible, as I haven't seen every fish, in every situation. Being a world wide forum, there is no way anyone here ever could, but does expose us all to situations we normally would not be aware of locally.

Interesting stuff. Bedtime for me.

 

[emmsy]

Oh for sure. I have the original paper written in my files somewhere. My thirst for knowledge is immense. Thats why I joined this forum. Somethings I know, and others I have to research like the rest of you. I have a copy of the Untergasser's book, and have alot of articles commited to memory. How sad is that? and maybe the reason I haven't had a boyfriend in 3 years LOL.

 

[Bloo]

Thank you again Tolak and Emmsy for your contribution, suggestions and advice.

I have decided to take my fish to the vet after all. The practice is http/www.cjhall-vets.co.uk/services.htm#Fish and the vet htttp/www.cjhall-vets.co.uk/staff.asp and they specialise in exotics, fish etc.
I'm very lucky that they are only around the corner from me.

So "Angel" is going in on Saturday to be examined !!!
I see they even have a special "fish operating table"

I will report back when I have further information and feedback.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah definatley get to the vet

just to share my experiences with HITH, I got it in my oscar a while back and managed to treat it. Got metronidazole from my vet, Tolak had advised me at the time about it and I believe he (and others in the USA) often get it in a powder form, for me it came in a liquid suspension. The vet advised me to give the fish 'baths' in it diluted with tank water for an hr a day which i did. when he was in his bath i did a 50% water change (every day for about 10 days). he was quite distressed by the treatment and i was worried about him on a few occasions but he did pull through. I also got some vitamin supplements, dissolved them in a little water then soaked his food in it so he was getting loads of healthy stuff into his immune system to help fight it.

really with fish meds it's quite bad in the UK, I'm fairly lucky, while my vet has no real fishy knowledge he's happy to get me prescriptions. I just have to take some pics of the fish and take them to him with one of my fishy health books detailing the problem and what med to get, he'll cross check it in his fishy book and give me the med. I'm sure with a specialist fish vet you'll be fine.

 

[emmsy]

Oh, you are laughing mate. With a fish speciality vet just around the corner, it would be a shame not to go. God, I can't beleive I'm on the forum in my lunch hour too

Good luck mate

Emma

 

[Bloo]

Emma, is that dedication, passion or obsession? All very fine line I'm sure!
I used to work as a veterinary nurse / technician btw and loved it. Pity there's no money in it for me and I couldn't live my life as an eternal penniless student!
But I'm still involved on the side lines working (in my free time) for a specialised pet sitting company which only employs vet nurses to look after & medicate ill pets in their own home whilst owners are away on holiday.

 

[emmsy]

Oh, for me, it's not a fine line at all. It is an obsession. end of story.

Vet nurses are the backbone of the vet profession IMHO, but wages compare to a pot washer in the catering trade, so no wonder so many people leave.
Can't you get an appointment till saturday? or is it a money issue? Most vets will do some sort of repayment terms if you are struggling

I knew my path was mapped out for me for a tough time, when she gave me a name that, when abbreviated to Emmsy, is actually longer than my real name Emma

 

[Bloo]

lol!
No, I could go sooner but work hours against surgery hours don't allow unfortunately and I have crazy meeting schedules over the next few days. And as the fish has had it for a few weeks now I'm sure a few more days are not going to make a major difference. I know I should have spotted this sooner and done something about it sooner, but I thought it might be something that would respond to Melafix (as it didn't look like a parasite or anything I knew). And as I saw no signs of it spreading on the fish itself (multiply) or spread to other fish, I kept hoping it would heal by itself or respond to Melafix.

Obviously not....