Angelfish Health Concern

[XoioX2000]

Hello everyone!

Although not a complete newbie, this is the first time I start my own tropical tank (previous experience was with my parents). I started running this 63 litre tank in October and after 5 weeks the water tests prooved to be perfect to add fish. I started with some Cardinal tetras (7) and some guppies (1m/3f). A further 2 weeks after and after getting the water tested (again) I added 2 Angelfish, 2 catfish and an apple snail.

I have been lucky to find small fishes so far: Even the Angelfish are babies: no more than 3cm long. The idea behind that was to get them to grow within the tank and accept the other fish (like the tetras) peacefully.

And it seems to have worked so far: They never try to bully the rest of the community in the tank...

However last week end, I added to the tank a pair of gouramis and 2 upside down catfish.

The guy at the shop said that the Gouramis normally get bullied by the Angelfish, but that in the case of these ones it should be fine as the Angelfish are tiny (He knows well what I have in my tank as I have purchased all my fish from the same place).

But a few days ago I found my apple snail a little wary of moving around in the tank: and it was clearly because the male Gourami had a good go at it! I have isolated the snail and it looks ok now: it starts to move around with its antennas deployed again and looks more active.

But over the past 24 hrs I have noticed that the smallest of the Angelfish does not look healthy: "it" (Dunno it it's a male or female) swims with its dorsal and bottom fins very rounded to the back (as opposed to nice and deployed as it used to). Its caudal fin is also very "flat" for better word.

The red behind the gills can clearly be seen, and I believe that's a good sign and it's been eating.

I am going to feed them with frozen bloodworms for the first time tomorrow (as I finally found this forum and the way to do it in an other thread!! ). I will look carefully how it responds to the bloodworms.

Do you think there may be a problem with that angelfish? The other one in the tank is swimming with fins completely deployed and looks fine. Is there something else I can do to figure out if it is a healthy fish?

Many thanks for your help,

David
XoioX2000

PS: I am about to start a 2nd tank (smaller one) just so that I can isolate either the Angelfish or the pair of Gouramis if I have to, but I am concerned that it may take some time for that tank to be ready to receive fish in it.

 

[Tolak]

Water test results are helpful when trying to assess an aquarium problem. What are the measurements on that tank? What type of catfish & gouramis? What type of filtration, how often & quantity of water changes? 63 liters is fine for the cardinal tetras & guppies, beyond that it's overstocked. Minimum requirements for 2 angels is a 20 gallon (75l), 29 (109l) is better, especially if they are veils.

I'm guessing it's stress due to the overcrowding, hard to tell not knowing more info on the tank or other fish.

Tolak

 

[Native American]

Sounds like you've described "clamping" of the fins...and you shouldn't readily see the "red" of the gills (unless you're looking from aft or 3/4 aft).

19 fish in that tank, with 2 of them being angels...I agree w/ Tolak that it seems a bit cramped.

v/r, N-A

 

[XoioX2000]

Hi Tolak, Hi Native American! Thank you for your reply!

The tank is 60 cm (length) x 32 cm (water height) x 30 cm (width).

The first catfish I got are about 3 cm long ad I cannot find them in the book I have.
Not sure if i'm allowed to post a link here, but this is a pic which I have found with google:
http/www.bensfish.wanadoo.co.uk/CATFISH.gif

The other 2 are about the same length 3cm and are Upside down catfish - Synodontis Nigriventris

The Gouramis are a male and female Dwarf Gouramis.

The filtration system is a Fluval 2 Plus. But I was unhappy with the amount of air I was getting out of that system so I have added an air diffuseur on the opposite side of the tank.

I cycle 10% of the water every week. I use a pipe with a large end to clean the gravel (forgot the name of it). I use rain water which I keep at room temperature before adding it to the tank. I have ordered a water test kit, but I'll try to get to the shop before they close and get the water tested: They test the water for free and so I had the water tested everytime I bought some fish and the results were fine (Amonia and Nitrate).

About the Angelfishes: I don't know if it's because they are small fish, but there is a least a 2mm gap for gills so the red can easily be seen. 2mm does not sound a large gap, but it looks quite big as they are both no longer than 3cm from mouth to end of the tail.

They both ate well this morning (bloodworms).

Thanks for all your comments. I take on board your perception that the tank is probably overcrowded. I will ask the shop if I can return the Gouramis... otherwise I'll have to wait until my second tank is up and running.

Any other comments you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

David

PS: Merry Xmas evryone!!!!

 

[rdd1952]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I agree with the statement about over crowding. Also, anytime you add more fish, you will experience a mini cycle with ammonia and nitrite becoming elevated. The size of the mini cycle depends on the percentage increase in the stocking level (if you have 4 fish and add 2 for instance, you have increased the stock by 50% but if you have 10 and add 2 you have only increased it by 20%). You should look into another tank soon as possible as the catfish looks like a common pleco which will grow to over a foot long. The angels also will eventually need a tank that is at least 12 to 14" deep as their fins get very big.

 

[Tolak]

That tank is too short for angels, they need a minimum of 16 inches of depth (40cm), 18(45cm) is better. Angels grow tall, a veil will easily hit 12 inches (30cm) in height if you include the fins.

That pic looks like a common plec, they will get big in a short amount of time. 12 to 18 inches is not uncommonin an aquarium. It may be a bristlenose plec, it's hard to tell when they are that small. Bristlenose max out at around 5 inches and would be a good choice for that tank.

The upside down cats & dwarf gouramis should be good for that tank, they don't get too big.

Sounds like you have good filtration for that tank, you have that part of the overstocking situation covered. Being overstocked you may want to change more water than 10%. 25% weekly would be better, I constantly overstock & overfilter tanks in my breeding setup, I also change anywhere from 50% to 80% weekly. Rain water is not reccommended, air pollution is a concern. If there is acid rain in the Amazon, there are pollutants in your rain water. Tap water with a good dechlorinator is probably a better idea.

The gap may be nothing, as they may be blushers who have a more transparent gill plate, at times looking like a gap. Posting a pic may help, or a link to a pic is fine. Go easy on the bloodworms, they tend to constipate & bloat angels. They are a good thing, too much of a good thing isn't good.

Actually the only problem if you got a little bit larger, taller tank, like a 29 gallon (109l), would be the plec if it is a common plec. The filtration could be switched over with the fish, having a cycled tank with more room & water volume. Since you are looking into another tank, I would go this route, keeping the smaller tank as a quar or hospital tank.

BTW, welcome to TFF!

Tolak

 

[frazoo]

please for the sake of the guppies(asuming that they are fancy ones) tanke them out the guppies will have their tails nipped by almost everything in your tank and i do think you have overcrowded. are any of your fishs fins nipped?

 

[XoioX2000]

Thanks everyone again for your inputs!

Sorry for the delay in replying: my internet connection was down for a few days...

rdd1952, Tolak: I finally found the name of these catfish I have: They are Ancistrus. On the website it says they can reach 13cm... So you are right Tolak: it is a Bristlenose

I finally received the water test kit and got the following results:

Amonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Ph: 7.8 (I realise the ph is a little high, but I am worried to do more damaged than good by trying to reduce it)

Since that test, I have returned the pair of Gouramis (2 days ago).

The Angelfish (about which I started this post) still hasn't shown any signs of recovery, although he is a lot more active in the tank.

Tolak: I will try to post a pic of the Angelfish... but taking a clear pic of it (or any of them for that matter) is proving a lot more difficult than I first thought. I think I sat for a couple of hours the other day with my dig camera on a tripod without a clear shot at the end and gave up. (for now) I need a faster camera or one with a manual focus: the automatic focus is way too slow.

Thanks for your comment about the bloodworms: I did wonder what was happening to them that evening when I saw how bloated they were! Your comment put my mind at rest, but I won't be giving them a whole cube of bloodworms anymore!

liveisme: None of my fishes have been nipped so far... obviously the gouramis are gone now, but even before that. But then again the Angelfish are just about the size of the male guppy and the 3 females are bigger than them... that state of affairs will change of course, but I was hoping that if the Angelfish grow within the tank, they will get used to being surrending by the same fishes.

The tank is a lot "calmer" since the Gouramis have gone. I'll report in a few days on the angelfish health progress...

Thanks for all your help and Happy New Year!