🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟

Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁

Ammonia Stuck At 0.25Ppm

Washed the sponges out in the water I removed from tank (not both at safe time) and I used a bottled ammonia from tool-station, it was cycling fine and converting ammonia no problem. Really can't understand how I went from 1ppm before a 90% change to 2-3ppm afterwards?!

misterpro said:
Safe Guard - Aquarium
50ml, 100ml, 250ml
Makes tap water safe for fish
Removes harmful chlorine and chloromines
Detoxifies heavy metals
--> Removes excess ammonia
Perhaps the safeguard itself does the same as ammo-lock? That would explain your reading perhaps...
So they could cancel each other out? I thought they would both help to remove ammonia and the ammo lock would convert it to harmless ammonium??
 
I think they do the same thing.

Btw, can Ammonium be eaten by bacs? My guess would be NO since some ammo-removing dechlorinators have been known to stall cycles...

Your dechlorinator locks it away under whatever form. (can't look up what form, still at work and being watched most of the time ;)) So your daily waterchanges lock away the first X amount of ammonia that your tank produces. Which gives you a reading(because your bacs can't eat the stuff locked away), makes you freak out and do a bigger waterchange(resulting in more ammonia being locked away and a higher reading next day)

IF my logic there is right (anybody with SafeGuard experience?? I'm using a dechlorinator which doesn't remove ammo)
THEN you have to stop doing huge waterchanges because you're starving your bacteria.

Please correct me when I'm wrong...
 
Kinda makes sense, need somebody with experience in this here to confirm my next steps. Do I need to just keep doing water changes and stop with the ammo lock? Or change my water dechlorinator ?
 
misterpro said:
I think they do the same thing.

Btw, can Ammonium be eaten by bacs? My guess would be NO since some ammo-removing dechlorinators have been known to stall cycles...

Your dechlorinator locks it away under whatever form. (can't look up what form, still at work and being watched most of the time
wink.png
) So your daily waterchanges lock away the first X amount of ammonia that your tank produces. Which gives you a reading(because your bacs can't eat the stuff locked away), makes you freak out and do a bigger waterchange(resulting in more ammonia being locked away and a higher reading next day)

IF my logic there is right (anybody with SafeGuard experience?? I'm using a dechlorinator which doesn't remove ammo)
THEN you have to stop doing huge waterchanges because you're starving your bacteria.

Please correct me when I'm wrong...
Yes, nitrifying bacteria can consume ammonium. From what I understand there are no ammonia removing dechlorinators. They all change its form to a less toxic form. Which gets consumed by the nitrifying bacteria.The test kits will show results for both ammonia and ammonium. Basically, if you use a product like Prime or Ammolock you will get a false reading out of your test kit if you test right after using it.
 
Try bringing a water sample to a LFS. Most test your water for free. See what they tell you. 
 
Also does your water contain Chloramines as a water treatment? Check with your water company.
 
The bacteria do not consume NH4+ aka ammonium, the use NH3 ammonia. When in water ammonia/ammonium exist together. How much of each there is will depend on the pH and temperature of the water. The higher the pH, the more NH3 there will be, which is why the advice is to cycle at about 8.3 pH. The same is true for temp, but to a much lesser extent.
 
Once you get below 6.5 pH there is almost no NH3, it is all NH4+. This is why the cycle seems to stop at that level. he bacteria are ultimately able to adapt and thrive at lower levels but that is another story.
 
While it is correct to say that NH3 is the more toxic form of ammonia, it is incorrect to say NH4+ is completely non-toxic. NH3 at levels of about .05 ppm is harmful to fish and much higher can become fatal fairly fast. And exposure times need not be long. NH4+ when it is present for extended periods or at higher levels can cause burns but this is nowhere near as damaging as the NH3. This can enter the fish's system through the gills whereas the NH4+ is a larger and can not. So it does it greatest harm externally.
 
The good news is that at your pH and Temperature there is almost no NH3 present. Until your test kit reads over 2 ppm your fish are not in any short term danger from NH3 levels. However, it is also important to realize the the toxicity of nitrite increase as the pH drops.
 
Ammonia detoxifiers can screw heck out of ammonia test kit results. So at this time we need to look elsewhere for the answers. Nitrite readings can be an excellent place to start. If you have ammonia oxidizing bacteria working in a tank, then we know that should make nitrites. If nitrite readings are rising it means more nitrite than nitrite oxidizers can handle. Once nitrite falls it means the nitrite eaters are catching up and when nitrite is 0 it means there are the right number of nitrite oxidizers to handle all the nitrite the ammonia eaters are producing. But due to the nature of the nitrite vs the ammonia oxidizers, ammonia always drops to before nitrites do. Also, if the is more ammonia than your ammonia eaters can handle, there nitrate they produce should be more than the nitrite eaters cans handle, and that means you get a nitrite reading until they catch up. So, if one is constantly getting ammonia reading but nitrites are staying at 0 one of two things is reasonable to assume.
 
One- the ammonia kit is giving false readings because the nitrite kit shows this with its 0 readings. Two- you have ammonia and the nitrite kit is bad. Given that certain dechlorinators and most ammonia detoxifyers can screw up ammonia test kit results, I put my money on option one. And then you can look for some backup evidence. If the ammonia readings are real, then your fish should be showing signs of distress. Corys are particularly sensitive. If your fish are behaving normally, that is usually a good sign that conditions are OK.
 
You might want to look at the SeaChem site regarding their Prim product and its potential effect on ammonia results when using salicylate test kits like the API one or their own- read items 1 and 2: http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
I do not think you have any issues in your tank, I think you have false readings for ammonia.
 
That is a great reply, my fish seem absolutely fine. My pandas are as active as ever and appear to be loving life! My Nitrite has been at 0 throughout this whole ordeal whilst my Nitrate has been around the 5-10 mark. Will look at using Seachem to do my weekly water changes with.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
The bacteria do not consume NH4+ aka ammonium, the use NH3 ammonia. When in water ammonia/ammonium exist together. How much of each there is will depend on the pH and temperature of the water. The higher the pH, the more NH3 there will be, which is why the advice is to cycle at about 8.3 pH. The same is true for temp, but to a much lesser extent.
 
Once you get below 6.5 pH there is almost no NH3, it is all NH4+. This is why the cycle seems to stop at that level. he bacteria are ultimately able to adapt and thrive at lower levels but that is another story.
 
While it is correct to say that NH3 is the more toxic form of ammonia, it is incorrect to say NH4+ is completely non-toxic. NH3 at levels of about .05 ppm is harmful to fish and much higher can become fatal fairly fast. And exposure times need not be long. NH4+ when it is present for extended periods or at higher levels can cause burns but this is nowhere near as damaging as the NH3. This can enter the fish's system through the gills whereas the NH4+ is a larger and can not. So it does it greatest harm externally.
 
The good news is that at your pH and Temperature there is almost no NH3 present. Until your test kit reads over 2 ppm your fish are not in any short term danger from NH3 levels. However, it is also important to realize the the toxicity of nitrite increase as the pH drops.
 
Ammonia detoxifiers can screw heck out of ammonia test kit results. So at this time we need to look elsewhere for the answers. Nitrite readings can be an excellent place to start. If you have ammonia oxidizing bacteria working in a tank, then we know that should make nitrites. If nitrite readings are rising it means more nitrite than nitrite oxidizers can handle. Once nitrite falls it means the nitrite eaters are catching up and when nitrite is 0 it means there are the right number of nitrite oxidizers to handle all the nitrite the ammonia eaters are producing. But due to the nature of the nitrite vs the ammonia oxidizers, ammonia always drops to before nitrites do. Also, if the is more ammonia than your ammonia eaters can handle, there nitrate they produce should be more than the nitrite eaters cans handle, and that means you get a nitrite reading until they catch up. So, if one is constantly getting ammonia reading but nitrites are staying at 0 one of two things is reasonable to assume.
 
One- the ammonia kit is giving false readings because the nitrite kit shows this with its 0 readings. Two- you have ammonia and the nitrite kit is bad. Given that certain dechlorinators and most ammonia detoxifyers can screw up ammonia test kit results, I put my money on option one. And then you can look for some backup evidence. If the ammonia readings are real, then your fish should be showing signs of distress. Corys are particularly sensitive. If your fish are behaving normally, that is usually a good sign that conditions are OK.
 
You might want to look at the SeaChem site regarding their Prim product and its potential effect on ammonia results when using salicylate test kits like the API one or their own- read items 1 and 2: http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
I do not think you have any issues in your tank, I think you have false readings for ammonia.
 
I dont agree with you about the bacteria not consuming ammonium. If you read the seachem site, it clearly states that the ammonia is converted to a less toxic (they say nontoxic) form and then removed by the biofilter.  How is the ammonium removed from the water?
 
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html
 
 
I do agree that he is getting false readings
 
So bringing this back, my next steps should be weekly 25% water changes with Seachem prime and keep testing weekly as well? And don't add any more fish until ammonia is cleared and stays at 0ppm.
 
Honestly, I'd be doing those water changes twice per week and checking my water stats every day. But that's just me being overly cautious.
 
geordieelvis said:
Yeah it's the API one, I tested my tap water and it definitely looks a little bit closer to the 0ppm than my tank water does, to be honest my tank water is probably a bit less than the 0.25 colour, I would say it was in between the 0 and the 0.25.
 
that'a a zero reading, API kits are notorious for this.
 
I dont agree with you about the bacteria not consuming ammonium.
Well it has been known that the autotrophic bacteria use NH3, ammonia, not HH4+, ammonium, since 1974. The seminal research was initially published in the  JOURNAL OF BACTERIOLOGY, OCt. 1974, p. 556-558 Copyright © 1974 American Society for Microbiology
 
Ammonia or Ammonium Ion as Substrate for Oxidation by Nitrosomonas europaea Cells and Extracts
Isamu Suzuki, Usha Dular, and S. C. Kwok
Department of Microbiology, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg 19, Manitoba, Canada, R3T 2N2
Received for publication 17 June 1974
 
The effect of pH on the Km values for ammonia was studied in its oxidation by Nitrosomonas cells and cell-free extracts. The Km values decreased markedly with increasing pH, suggesting (NH3) rather than (NH4+) as the actual substrate for oxidation.
 
Read it here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245802/pdf/jbacter00334-0572.pdf
abstract etc. here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245802/
 
Cited many many times since. "The current assumption that free ammonia (NH3) rather than ammonium (
inline-graphic-1.gif
) is the substrate for ammonia oxidation in Nitrosomonas is based on numerous publications (Suzuki et al., 1974; Drozd, 1976; Hooper & Dispirito, 1985; Painter, 1988; Wiesmann, 1994)...."
 
Only in extremely acid pH conditions (int the 4.0 range) do the autotrophic ammonia oxidizers seem to be able to convert to utilizing ammonium since there is negligible ammonia present. But this has no relevance to most aquariums.
 
I am now getting readings of 4ppm on my ammonia but fish seem totally happy, how long will I get false readings for?? Haven't used ammolok for over 2 weeks now, doing 2 water changes a week and am using the Seachem prime now. I really don't think that is a true reading as the fish wouldn't be so active and happy if it was at 4ppm?
 
I think you're right. Can you get a new ammonia test? Maybe Nutrafin or another brand?
 
I could do yeah, if I knew which test would give me a true reading?? I was under the impression that the API was the best kit on the market ?
 

Most reactions

Back
Top