Ammonia Remover

[grahamandgem]

Hello everyone,

I am new to keeping tropical fish - Bought tank from local store and cycled using Nutrafin Aqua cycle as advised. Had the tank a fortnight and the fish went in 4 days ago (can I clarify first that the shop said this was fine and had I been online - would have realised this was a big no - no)
I have 4 scissor tailed rasboras and 2 zebra danios in (again as suggested by shop) and ammonia went up this morning to 0.25 ppm (as I have been giving them too much food) and I was told by the shop this afternoon to add ammonia remover, dont do a water change and leave the filter as is because the good stuff is in the filter. They also gave me an example of how much food to give them over the next week (hardly any) to make sure that doesnt affect the ammonia

The shop seem very knowledgeable and I trust their opinions - they know their stuff and said I can call anytime if I have a problem - but looking on the forums - everyone said ammonia remover is not a good idea - I have added it already and I'm now panicking the fish will die! One of my danios (had 3 to start) already managed to jump out of the tank on Friday morning through the tiniest gap in the tank where the wires go in and I dont think I can cope with more fish deaths!

I completely understand that adding the fish so soon may not have been a good ides but I just need some reassurance and advice.
Any would be much appreciated!

Thanks
Gem

 

[mattlee]

you are now in a fish in cycle using the fishes waste as an ammonia source to cycle the filter. ammonia remover does what it says but removing all the ammonia will prevent the bacteria growing and causing the filter to not cycle. the best way of removing the ammonia is to do large daily water changes im affraid. this is common practice for fish shops to sell you cycle stuff in a bottle but it just doesnt work.... keep testing every day and do a water change when the ammonia gets above 0, otherwise the fish will be slowly poisoned in their own waste. water changes will not effect the filter 1 bit and are the best thing for you and your fish right now
good luck.

 

[CrystalClear16]

Hi Gem, welcome to TFF

I am afraid you have been given poor advice - but your LFS proberly doesn't know better. Your tank has not been cycled, so you are currently doing what we call fish in cycling (for more info, read here - http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306).

Ammonia remover is not very helpful and as a general rule the only chemicals you should add to your tank are dechorinator (when doing water changes) and medication if your fish get ill. But don't worry that you have already added it - the ammonia in the tank is far more dangerous to the fish than the remover. Don't add any more remover and do big, daily water changes to prevent any deaths (read the thread I linked to above for more info).

Don't feel bad about making mistakes, many newbies are given poor advice so well done for doing your own research and asking here

There is a really great set of guides here that I found really helpful. If you have time I suggest you take a look:
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/

 

[grahamandgem]

Thank you soooooo much for not judging me for start!! I was worried about the backlash of having fish in so soon!
As i have added the ammonia remover this afternoon, should I test it later and if still high do a water change straight away?
sorry for all the questions!

Gem

 

[mattlee]

remove the ammonia remover from the filter asap. then test the water every day to check for ammonia. feed the fish small amounts as uneaten food will cause ammonia to rise fast.

oh yeah welcome to the forum

 

[Dave Spencer]

you are now in a fish in cycle using the fishes waste as an ammonia source to cycle the filter. ammonia remover does what it says but removing all the ammonia will prevent the bacteria growing and causing the filter to not cycle. the best way of removing the ammonia is to do large daily water changes im affraid.

Isn`t this a bit of a contradiction? Using ammonia removing media (Zeolite for instance) leaves the ammonia in the filter, available to the bacteria. Chucking ammonia down the loo makes the ammonia unavailable.

However, water changes are definitely the order of the day, along with leaving the ammonia removing media in. Once it is exhausted, it will make a perfect home for a bacteria colony to form.

Sorry, but some of the bad advice is also in this thread, as well as your LFS. People who do not use ammonia removing media shouldn`t just jump on the usual band wagons. Removing it may well remove a lot of your colony that has started to form. The same goes for carbon. If it is in there, leave it for your bacteria to colonise. Forget about what you may hear about these products leaching ammonia and other nasties back in to the water, because it doesn`t happen. I have used Zeolite and carbon quite a bit in planted tanks. Both are well and truly tried and trusted in many tanks.

Dave.

 

[raptorrex]

you are now in a fish in cycle using the fishes waste as an ammonia source to cycle the filter. ammonia remover does what it says but removing all the ammonia will prevent the bacteria growing and causing the filter to not cycle. the best way of removing the ammonia is to do large daily water changes im affraid.

Isn`t this a bit of a contradiction? Using ammonia removing media (Zeolite for instance) leaves the ammonia in the filter, available to the bacteria. Chucking ammonia down the loo makes the ammonia unavailable.

However, water changes are definitely the order of the day, along with leaving the ammonia removing media in. Once it is exhausted, it will make a perfect home for a bacteria colony to form.

Sorry, but some of the bad advice is also in this thread, as well as your LFS. People who do not use ammonia removing media shouldn`t just jump on the usual band wagons. Removing it may well remove a lot of your colony that has started to form. The same goes for carbon. If it is in there, leave it for your bacteria to colonise. Forget about what you may hear about these products leaching ammonia and other nasties back in to the water, because it doesn`t happen. I have used Zeolite and carbon quite a bit in planted tanks. Both are well and truly tried and trusted in many tanks.

Dave.

well said sir

 

[mattlee]

you are now in a fish in cycle using the fishes waste as an ammonia source to cycle the filter. ammonia remover does what it says but removing all the ammonia will prevent the bacteria growing and causing the filter to not cycle. the best way of removing the ammonia is to do large daily water changes im affraid.

Isn`t this a bit of a contradiction? Using ammonia removing media (Zeolite for instance) leaves the ammonia in the filter, available to the bacteria. Chucking ammonia down the loo makes the ammonia unavailable.

However, water changes are definitely the order of the day, along with leaving the ammonia removing media in. Once it is exhausted, it will make a perfect home for a bacteria colony to form.

Sorry, but some of the bad advice is also in this thread, as well as your LFS. People who do not use ammonia removing media shouldn`t just jump on the usual band wagons. Removing it may well remove a lot of your colony that has started to form. The same goes for carbon. If it is in there, leave it for your bacteria to colonise. Forget about what you may hear about these products leaching ammonia and other nasties back in to the water, because it doesn`t happen. I have used Zeolite and carbon quite a bit in planted tanks. Both are well and truly tried and trusted in many tanks.

Dave.

with zero ammonia ina tank due to the ammonia remover how is a filter suppose to colonise then....? as it needs a source to be able to form..... the ammonia remover was only added a day before the post so i doubt it will have any bacteria on it in 24hrs, do you? when you used zeolite was it in a new tank that wasnt cycled?

 

[Dave Spencer]

with zero ammonia ina tank due to the ammonia remover how is a filter suppose to colonise then....?

This is because the Zeolite is in the filter. It has a huge surface area, making it an excellent media for a bacteria colony. The fact that it adsorbs ammonia from the water is great for the fish, and it is still available to the bacteria.

as it needs a source to be able to form..... the ammonia remover was only added a day before the post so i doubt it will have any bacteria on it in 24hrs, do you? when you used zeolite was it in a new tank that wasnt cycled?

I always use Zeolite in a new tank. When you think about how it works, why not? Especially with a fish in cycle.

Fair enough, in a brand new tank it may not hold any bacteria, but why take it out? Zeolite gets a very undeserved bad press on TFF, in my opinion.

Dave.

 

[adsturgeon]

My advice would be to listen to what these guys are saying and wait for the ammonia and nitrite's to reach 0 for at least a week before adding any more fish. I happened to keep adding fish (due to lfs advice and there false tests) which just kept stalling it, now about 80+days the cycle has finished! Just be really patient! Not sure if it's mentioned but invest into an API freshwater master kit!

 

[mattlee]

with zero ammonia ina tank due to the ammonia remover how is a filter suppose to colonise then....?

This is because the Zeolite is in the filter. It has a huge surface area, making it an excellent media for a bacteria colony. The fact that it adsorbs ammonia from the water is great for the fish, and it is still available to the bacteria.

as it needs a source to be able to form..... the ammonia remover was only added a day before the post so i doubt it will have any bacteria on it in 24hrs, do you? when you used zeolite was it in a new tank that wasnt cycled?

I always use Zeolite in a new tank. When you think about how it works, why not? Especially with a fish in cycle.

Fair enough, in a brand new tank it may not hold any bacteria, but why take it out? Zeolite gets a very undeserved bad press on TFF, in my opinion.

Dave.

i get what you mean and yes i see the logic, so why do people not just chuck some of this in then and add fish straight away instead of all the water changes....

 

[alchemist]

[I always use Zeolite in a new tank. When you think about how it works, why not? Especially with a fish in cycle.

Fair enough, in a brand new tank it may not hold any bacteria, but why take it out? Zeolite gets a very undeserved bad press on TFF, in my opinion.

Dave - I agree that Zeolite gets a bad press on here - but when using Zeolite you need to be careful otherwise you just end up in the same fish-in-cycle situation.
I can guarantee that using Zeolite saved my fish during a fish-in-cycle when I first started.

Zeolite 'traps' ammonia - but it has a finite ability to do this depending on how much you have in the tank. For arguments sake lets pretend that the Zeolite can capture 50ppm of Ammonia. If the fish produced 2ppm of ammonia a day - the Zeolite will be saturated after 25 days. At this point - the ammonia in the tank suddenly 'spikes' as 2ppm of ammonia a day suddenly appeared with no proper way to deal with it. Some people think this is Zeolite 'dumping' its ammonia load - that is not the case - it just isn't capturing any more ammonia. If you follow the instructions and swap out the Zeolite regularly you have just given yourself another '25' days.

Whilst all this is going on - a very small bacteria colony will be growing inside your filter on other media from any ammonia coming through not grabbed by the Zeolite. Over an extended period of time - this colony will grow to a point where the Zeolite isn't really doing anything and would just be another filter medium.

So - with this said - I don't see any problem with Zeolite as long as it is near the final stage of your filter - and you are prepared to pay to replace the Zeolite on a regular basis to avoid a spike. Eventually you will get a fully colonised bacteria colony and the Zeolite will act as a good buffer against other causes of spikes. E.G. new fish. You still need to swap it regularly as you have no way of knowing if it is at 'capacity' . Personally I wouldn't want to leave fully saturated Zeolite in the tank for extended periods of time. If you do use Zeolite - and swap it regularly - you will eventually have a completed fish-in-cycle - it will just take much longer.

It is possible to recharge Zeolite using salt water - but that is a separate discussion and over time its ability to capture ammonia diminishes. This is also why crafty filter companies mix the Zeolite with Carbon - to prevent you recharging it and putting it in the tank.

 

[Dave Spencer]

Alchemist, you are right regarding quantities. It is very difficult to say how much is needed, but I generally go with a tray full. it is worth noting, however, that i don`t actually add Zeolite to keep ammonia down for fish, I have other uses in planted tanks.

Where we disagree is in the constant changing of exhausted Zeolite. It`s huge surface area means an awful lot of bacteria can be removed with it. This, I believe, is why people see an ammonia spike straight after removing it. The ammonia increases, not because the Zeolite ammonia removing properties have been removed, but because the denitrifying capacity of the filter has been reduced.

Starting planted tanks with Zeolite, and leaving it in once it is exhausted is far more common than people think, and is a perfectly safe, tried and trusted option.

Dave.

 

[grahamandgem]

Thanks for all your advice

Ammonia levels are back at zero following one dose of the remover of Sunday!
I have the API testing kit - it's very comforting being able to test the water so I know whats happening in there!

All my fish seem to be happy enough (fingers crossed)and giving them just a little bit of food daily to avoid giving them too much - that part is quite hard as they seem to be always looking for more and I have to stop myself.

Nitrate levels up a bit this evening 5ppm - dont know if this is really bad or of a water change will do the trick?

Again, thanks for the advice!
Gem