Ammonia Poisoning?! - Out Of Ideas

[MadameFizzgig]

I've made a few threads on this, because it seems that right when my violet goby starts to do better, it happens again.
 
Background: I've had him for about 2 weeks, I got him from a less than reputable place (I didn't know) and they were not taking good care of him. He's about 4in long and the only fish in the tank. I didn't know about cycling when I got him, so I've been working to try and cycle the tank while he's in it. 
 
This morning he started gasping at the surface, so I did my normal 20% water change and waited a while. He's still doing it, so I did a larger water change, and he still seems distressed and he's going to the surface still.
 
I don't know what to do anymore guys. I feel like I've been trying my best to follow everyone's instructions but I'm just failing. I dechlorinate the water every time I do a water change, I've added beneficial bacteria to the tank, and I've been keeping up with cleaning the gravel. I don't know what else I can do, it's really frustrating. 
 
The larger water change I did was about 2/3rds of the tank, so I don't understand how he's still distressed. Please help!

 

[fluttermoth]

Do you have an ammonia test and, if so what are your results?

If you don't have tests, then you do need to get ones for ammonia and nitrite, ASAP so you can monitor the levels better.

If your fish is still not right, you probably need to do another water change. I'm afraid this is why fish-in cycles are so difficult.

Have you read these threads; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ ?

 

[MadameFizzgig]

Do you have an ammonia test and, if so what are your results?

If you don't have tests, then you do need to get ones for ammonia and nitrite, ASAP so you can monitor the levels better.

If your fish is still not right, you probably need to do another water change. I'm afraid this is why fish-in cycles are so difficult.

Have you read these threads; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ ?

I'll check again, before I did the large water change the ammonia was about 2ppt, which I know is way too high, which I why i did the larger water change.
 
I thought it wasn't good to do several large water changes, though?
 
And yeah, I've read the links. They say one of the best alternatives is to add bacteria, which is what I've been doing. Should I add more? I feel like I've already added a lot, but maybe I need to add more.

 

[fluttermoth]

If you think about it, if your ammonia was at 2ppm, and you've done a 75% change, the ammonia is going to be around 0.5, which is still too high.

Large water changes, as long as the new water is temperature matched and dechlorinated, aren't a problem; certainly less of a problem than the ammonia would be.

By all means add more bacteria; after you've done the water change, obviously! It won't do any harm and might do some good.

 

[MadameFizzgig]

If you think about it, if your ammonia was at 2ppm, and you've done a 75% change, the ammonia is going to be around 0.5, which is still too high.

Large water changes, as long as the new water is temperature matched and dechlorinated, aren't a problem; certainly less of a problem than the ammonia would be.

By all means add more bacteria; after you've done the water change, obviously! It won't do any harm and might do some good.

 
Okay, I did a second 2/3rds water change and added more bacteria. Hopefully this will help.

 

[BiggTexx]

I'm going to run with another thought process here just to make sure we cover all of the bases.
 
What equipment are you running on the tank?  i.e. HOB or Canister Filter? Air pump and air-stones?  What is the water movement, specifically surface agitation, like?
 
I once had an air pump crash on me overnight and the next morning had stock gasping at the top. So far, you have indicated that things normally get better after water changes, which not only removes ammonia (which is still a problem that needs to be dealt with) but also agitates the water and increases the amount of O2 in the water.  You could try a couple different things to see if they help at all:

1. Add a small air pump and air-stone (if you don't have one already)
2. If using an HOB Filter, lower the tank water to a point where the overflow from the filter creates a noticeable splash against the surface of the water. This can also be done with Canister filters by angling the output towards the surface of the water to cause greater agitation.

 

[MadameFizzgig]

 
I'm going to run with another thought process here just to make sure we cover all of the bases.
 
What equipment are you running on the tank?  i.e. HOB or Canister Filter? Air pump and air-stones?  What is the water movement, specifically surface agitation, like?
 
I once had an air pump crash on me overnight and the next morning had stock gasping at the top. So far, you have indicated that things normally get better after water changes, which not only removes ammonia (which is still a problem that needs to be dealt with) but also agitates the water and increases the amount of O2 in the water.  You could try a couple different things to see if they help at all:

1. Add a small air pump and air-stone (if you don't have one already)
2. If using an HOB Filter, lower the tank water to a point where the overflow from the filter creates a noticeable splash against the surface of the water. This can also be done with Canister filters by angling the output towards the surface of the water to cause greater agitation.

 

 
I'm not positive what the names of my filters are, but I can check if need be. They're both clip-on/hang over the side of the tank filters. I know that I have enough filtration for a tank slightly bigger than mine.
 
I don't have air stones, but I could remove a little bit of water so there's more of a splash when the filtered water hits the surface. The surface is relatively agitated, enough that you can see the entire surface of the water moving/rippling a little bit all the time. And you can see bubbles being pushed nearly to the bottom of the tank by the biggest filter.
 
I typically leave about 2 and half to 3 inches of space from the surface of the water from the top of the tank. Right now it's more like and inch and a half, just because I was trying to dilute the ammonia earlier.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Adding bacteria may or may not help. It depends not only on the brand but also on the conditions in the tank when it is sadded. Ammonia or nitrite above certain levels will kill the bacteria.
 
it is also important to understand the difference between how ammonia damages fish vs nitrite. The latter is the more common cause of gasping at the surface. With ammonia, killing is caused by NH3 being able to pass though the gills into the bloodstream. However, the NH4 component can also cause burns and even though it will not enter the fish, at high enough levels and/or long enough exposure it can cause gill damage. Often this is visible from examining the gills when that is possible.
 
Nitrite doesn't damage the gills. What it does is explained the second of the two fish in rescue articles. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ One key thing to understand about nitrite is for its effects to stop, it must leave the system of the fish. This takes a little time and there is very little one can do to force it out. That article explains why using salt to counteract nitrite is usually a better solution than changing water.
 
You should have both ammonia and nitrite test kits for cycling, especially when fish are involved. Do you have any idea of your nitrite levels? DAlso what is the pH of your tank water? This determines how toxic any amount of ammonia might be.

 

[BiggTexx]

OK, so those are HOB Filters (Hang on Back) and the water movement sounds good, especially with the larger filter pushing flow deep into the tank.

 

[MadameFizzgig]

Adding bacteria may or may not help. It depends not only on the brand but also on the conditions in the tank when it is sadded. Ammonia or nitrite above certain levels will kill the bacteria.
 
it is also important to understand the difference between how ammonia damages fish vs nitrite. The latter is the more common cause of gasping at the surface. With ammonia, killing is caused by NH3 being able to pass though the gills into the bloodstream. However, the NH4 component can also cause burns and even though it will not enter the fish, at high enough levels and/or long enough exposure it can cause gill damage. Often this is visible from examining the gills when that is possible.
 
Nitrite doesn't damage the gills. What it does is explained the second of the two fish in rescue articles. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/ One key thing to understand about nitrite is for its effects to stop, it must leave the system of the fish. This takes a little time and there is very little one can do to force it out. That article explains why using salt to counteract nitrite is usually a better solution than changing water.
 
You should have both ammonia and nitrite test kits for cycling, especially when fish are involved. Do you have any idea of your nitrite levels? DAlso what is the pH of your tank water? This determines how toxic any amount of ammonia might be.

 
Okay, I'll try to respond to all you said to the best of my ability, here we go:
 
I have two different bacteria brands, one that was recommended on here and one that was recommended by the specialty fish that's an hour away. I have Tetra Safe Start Plus and Fritz-Zyme Turbo Start.
 
I have been looking at his gills to check for discoloration, which I've read would be red or purple. I'm not positive what violet goby gills are supposed to look like (pictures online all look different), but currently they don't look to be very obviously discolored. Earlier they did look a little darker pink than usual, but that may have been because he was agitated. I haven't seen anything that looks like a burn on his body, but it may be hard to notice because he does hide a lot and he is a darker-colored fish. Also, I tested the ammonia levels of the tap water here, just to be sure that it didn't already have ammonia in it. It doesn't.
 
He is also a brackish water fish, so there is already salt in his tank. I'm slowly raising the SG in his tank so that he will be acclimated, because when I got him he was being kept in fresh water. Last time I checked, the SG in his tank was about 1.006.
 
I only have an ammonia testing kit right now, and honestly it kind of broke the bank just to get that (poor college student here). However, the salt that I add does say that it stabilizes pH.

OK, so those are HOB Filters (Hang on Back) and the water movement sounds good, especially with the larger filter pushing flow deep into the tank.

 
Good! I certainly don't need an ammonia issue and an oxygen issue in the tank, should I still remove some water so that there's more of a splash?

 

[BiggTexx]

I agree with TTA, you really do need to grab a kit that can test everything you need.  They are critical in this cycling process.  The API Freshwater Master kit is an inexpensive investment.

And generally, you are not going to over-oxygenate the water, so while this will help I was mainly trying to rule out the oxygen as a factor.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Lose the Fritz. Stick with the SafeStart.
 
As I posted in one of your other threads on this topic, there are different ammonia oxidizing bacteria/archaea in sw and fresh water. The dividing line is at 1.007 and you are about cross it. This will not have good results most likely. SafeStart and Dr. Tim's One and Only contain very similar bacteria.
 
Unfortunately, trying to cycle a tank while changing salinity is not really the best way to do things. I am not a brackish or sw person, but it seems to me as if the best course of action here is not open to you without the money to pay for it. In case you can find some cash, here is what i would suggest you do.
 
1. Get some of Dr. Tims sw One and Only.
2. Get new bio-media for your filter and replace 50% of the media. (This is not an absolute requirement and can be skipped if unaffordable.)
3. Do a huge water change and refill the tank with dechlored (do not overdose) and temp. matched water whose "salinity is greater than 10 ppt (1.007 S.G.).
4. Turn off the tank lights and remove any intake prefilter if you have one. Shake the bottle well and pour it into the tank. Do not change any water for the next 24 hours.
 
Since you are already adding more salt than is needed to counter almost any nitrite you likely have, this should not be the cause of the surface breathing. I have never kept gobys, so I cannot comment on the salinity needs of yours. The above advice assumes the one you have requires salinity levels in the range you indicated. You should be sure you have this part of your parameter information is 100% correct.

 

[MadameFizzgig]

Perhaps some good news?
 
Yesterday the ammonia levels were very high in his tank (2ppm), today they're .50 ppm. I know it's still not good, it should be zero. But maybe this is a sign that the bacteria are finally kicking in?
 
I'm still doing the water changes to combat the high ammonia levels, but I'm hoping that this is a good sign!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I would not raise the salinity in that case. If Dr. H sees the dividing line at 1.007, I would suggest you make sure to stay under that. The one good thing is the nitrite bacs have no issue with salinity.

 

[MadameFizzgig]

Alright, I'm now actually able to give more stats because I bought the tests.
 
Keep in mind this is after many water changes, so ammonia definitely was higher.
 
Ammonia = .25
Nitrate= about 10
Nitrite= about .5 (but he's brackish, so I think the salt helps him from being affected by this?)
Alkalinity= not sure
pH= abou 7.8
 
I just went out and got some Prime and added it to his tank, so I'll test again once it has a bit of time to set in. I also got something to help regulate the pH, since it's a bit high.
 
I know 5 gallons is small, it's temporary. I'll be getting a larger tank soon.
 
He has been in the tank for a little over 2 weeks, and he's the only fish in the tank.
 
(cross posting this from my newest thread)