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Ammonia Issues In Cycled Community Tank

FishMonkey

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[SIZE=10.5pt]Hi all,[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have had my tank setup for 3 months now and it has been fully cycled for about 6 weeks (I did a fish-in cycle as I hadn’t done my research and listened to my LFS), details of my tank/stock below:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Juwel Rekord 800 110L Tank
Juwel Filter Bioflow Super
Juwel 100 Watt Heater
Tetra APS 100 Pump with 4" Air Stone

4 x Glowlight Tetras
4 x Neon Tetras
2 x Flame Red Dwarf Gouramis
1 x Lyretail Sailfin Molly
7 x Molly Fry (I will be trading these with my LFS when fully matured - they were born in my tank and i don't want it overrun with Mollies)
2 x Tiger Shrimp
[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I am unsure as to which filter sponge does what, i have been following the instructions that came with my Juwel Bioflow Super and it advises to replace them as follows:[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=10.5pt]White pre-filter wool weekly[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=10.5pt]Black carbon sponge monthly[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=10.5pt]Green nitrate remover sponge every 3 months[/SIZE]
  • [SIZE=10.5pt]Blue sponge every 6 months[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have only replaced the white wool when it is nearly falling apart as this is just to catch debris, I have rinsed weekly in removed tank water though.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I replaced the black carbon sponge 3 weeks ago as my LFS advised that this doesn't need replacing, but just needs a good rinse in removed tank water monthly (I was advised to wait until my tank was definitely cycled before cleaning this which is why I didn’t change it after my first month).[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I test my water every 2-3 days as I am a bit cautious about causing harm/killing my stock, and all the levels were fine up until 2 weeks ago (Ammonia was still being converted for a week after changing my carbon sponge), my Ammonia then started rising fairly quickly, one day it was 0, then 2 days later it was up to 0.4, I have been having to do 2 water changes a week, my usual weekly 25% when I do my gravel/glass clean and an extra 50% in the middle of the week to battle the rising Ammonia.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I am no longer seeing any Nitrite as the Ammonia does not seem to be getting converted, has anyone seen this before or have any ideas as to what I can do to fix this?[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]My LFS advised me to take a couple of bags of water from them and add this to my tank to help rebuild the good bacteria, which I can’t really see a problem with as all their fish look really healthy and their tanks are nice and clean, but it does not provide an answer as to why this has happened and how I can stop this from happening in future.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Does anyone have any ideas or seen/been through something like this themselves before?[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Just in case anyone asks, my levels are currently:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]pH[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] 7.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]NH3[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] (Ammonia) 0.25ppm
NO2
(Nitrite) 0ppm
NO3[/SIZE] (Nitrate) 100ppm – Jersey tap water is higher than this at present so my tank is removing some of the Nitrates
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Any help will be greatly appreciated as always![/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Thanks[/SIZE]
 
I'll let someone else help with the ammonia problem, but I will say that I wouldn't advise putting the stores tank water in. It won't do much good, and could bring in disease.
 
First off I am a bit surprised at your statment aboyut 100ppm of nitrate in your tap. If this is a municipal system, it is in violation of Federal regulations regarding permissible nitrate levels in tap water. These are set at 10 mg/l-N. On an api kit this would be about 46 ppm. Levels above these are considered to be unsafe for consumption by infants.
 
I can think of any number of reasons you are seeing low levels of ammonia where they should not be. These range from having your water company changing from chlorine to chloramine and your not using a dechlor that detoxifies the ammonia that is released when chloramine breaks down in the presence of dechlor. It could be a false reading because you do use a decholor with an ammonia detoxifier or an ammonia detox itself.  These can cause false positives.
 
Rather than type out a lengthy explanation which I have just done in another thread i will just let you read what I wrote there http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/431958-ammonia-levels/page-2#entry3657056
 
One last note. You do not have .25 ppm of NH3 in your tank. If you did your fish would likely be dead since anything at .05 ppm or above is doing serious harm to most fish etc.. Test kits read total ammonia which measures both NH3 and NH4 (ammonium). Most of the ammonia in tanks is in the NH4 form but it is NH3 which is the more toxic form.
 
Thanks for your responses.
 
TwoTankAmin - I was suprised too, back in November our water in Jersey (Channel Islands) had 0ppm of Nitrate, then we had a few months of really heavy rain and flooding and our water supply was polluted by the Nitrates that are used on our fields and have been at 100ppm+ since then, our water company is trying to resolve this at present but they are still sitting round the 100ppm mark and don't seem to be dropping yet (this has been reported in our local paper so i know i am not wrong on that front).
 
I do use an API Freshwater Master test kit.
 
The dechlorinator i am using is API Stress Coat, should i be using something else?
 
I have read your previous post and agree that my tests could be wrong, my fish all look healthy and are acting normally so agree that the results could be untrue.
 
I am new to this and am doing/saying what i thought was right, on my tests it tells me i am getting 0.25ppm of NH3/NH4 (i didn't realise the difference between the 2).
 
Do you suggest i skip the extra 50% WC i am doing and just leave it for the week, then test when i clean my gravel and do a 25% WC?
 
Thanks again.
 
On the media question:
 
The white pad will need changing frequently. Juwel put it first in the water flow to stop debris getting into the sponges. It goes holey and shapeless after a couple of washes. But don't buy juwel pads, get a roll of filter wool and use a pad as a template to cut the roll up. Much cheaper.
 
Black sponge - you don't actually need to run carbon full time. You can replace it with blue sponge.
 
Green sponge - doesn't do much, if anything, for nitrate despite Juwel's claims. But it is a good home for the bacteria. Treat it like a blue sponge.
 
Blue sponges - don't change them till they literally fall apart in a few years' time. Just wash them in old tank water. If they ever do need changing, do them one at a time with a few weeks between. This all applies to the green sponge as well.
 
Cirax -if you have this, don't change that either till it starts to crumble.
 
I agree with essay Juwel trying to make more money out of fishkeepers.
 
Well I am never opposed to reasonable water changes. I tend to do about 50% once a week on most tanks. I think doing tank maintenance on an established tank where the fish have live for some time is much less stressful to fish who might be in a new tank being cycled with fish. As such I think doing more frequent water changes (to a point) can be productive.
 
My problem is with the great degree of trust most fish keepers place in hobby kits. That is not to say they are always wrong or useless but rather that they can be at times. And I do not blame fish keepers either because who besides a nut like me is going to try and dig out the information. All I am saying is when the test results appear to be impossible or unexplainable, consider the other factors to figure it out. While test kits are mostly jelpful, they are not infallible. And then neither are we as test kit operators, I still sonetime lose count of the drops or fail to rinse out a test tube well despite having been at this a while. And then there is the whole issue of using drops. That is not a scientific measurment. And when we squeeze those little bottles I would bet dollars to donuts that we do not get uniformity.
 
The hobby test kits work best when we are aware of their potential shortcomings and know that we are not requiredb lindly to trust the results 100% of the time.
 
Thanks for explaining the media questions essjay.

Right so you are saying that I should continue with the water changes as I currently am doing and not worry so much about the supposed Ammonia increase? As detailed in your other post, could it be the dechlorinator that I am using that is giving a false positive?

I haven't been using Stress Coat the entire life span of my tank, I used to use Nutrafin Aqua Plus until I read somewhere that Stress Coat was preferred.

It seems a bit odd to me that I have seen my levels increasing during my cycle as they should, then reducing again but now only my Ammonia is increasing and no Nitrite, what should I be looking for to know that my water is good for my fish if the test kit should not be relied upon?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just feel more confused now than before I started this thread.

Am I doing good something wrong with my tank?

Should I look at getting some Cirax to go in with my media?
 
I also wanted to add that if I do a water change and test before and my Ammonia reading is 0.50 then do a 50% water change, when I test straight after it shows as 0.25 so while I understand that there could be user error or the test might not be completely accurate, surely this would show differing results as to what I'd expect?

If the testing is not accurate, they seem very right to me as everything through my cycle and right up until this point the tests have shown me what I have expected from a cycling/cycled tank.

This doesn't seem the same sort of issue as your reply on the other post I read TwoTankAmin.
 
You hit it on the head. Ammonia but no nitrite. That is a good clue. The two types of bacteria live together in the same bio-film along with a host of other beneficial bacteria. The ammonia bacs and the nitrite bacs live near each other like this because is is clearly in the best interests of the nitrite backs to live where the nitrite is made. Mother nature always seems to work things out this way. The point is they live together and in balance, there will only be enough nitrite bacs to handle whatever is produced by the ammonia bacs who will also size to the ammonia source. In a tank it is not easy to stop only one or the other from doing the job.
 
So, as you aptly noted, if the ammonia is real, where  is the nitrite? And that is exactly what I was trying to illustrate. In cases where there is a cause for ammonia suddenly showing up in an established tank, such as a dead rotting fish not found, that ammonia spike will also produce a nitrite spike soon after. This is normal. But in a cycled tank having day after day of a low level or a constant level of ammonia but no nitrite is not. These are just the sort of signs that can indicate the ammonia test results may not be accurate.
 
Now I am not familiar with a lot of the media you are discussing as it seems to be a European thing. What I can tell you is that, Including those in my bio-farm tank, I have over 50 filters running. Almost every one uses sponges and filter floss as the media. The 2 canisters have some noodles or bio-rocks. Almost no tanks ever have carbon or any other chemical media except for spot use. And the only thing I change regularly is the floss. I rinse the sponges and change the floss and water weekly and have for over 13 years.
 
Just a personal opinion here, I am not a fan of stress coat and would never allow it in any of my tanks.
 
Thank you for clearing that up, I understand it a lot more now.

So what dechlorinator do you recommend?

And as I have to change my water via a bucket, should I only be using the amount of dechlorinator to decholrinate my buckets I am adding, or enough for the entire tank?
 
FishMonkey said:
Thank you for clearing that up, I understand it a lot more now.

So what dechlorinator do you recommend?

And as I have to change my water via a bucket, should I only be using the amount of dechlorinator to decholrinate my buckets I am adding, or enough for the entire tank?
Prime is my personal favorite. I only add enough to the buckets to dechlorinate the amount of water in the bucket, not for the whole tank.
 
here is what SeaChem states re that:
 
 
May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume.
from http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html
 
If you add it to the return water before adding then dose for only the amount of new water going in.
 
If you add the tank, then regardless of the amount of the change, dose for the entire tank volume when filled. Dose the tank and then add the new water.
 

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