Ammonia in new tank with seeded filter media

[mrsjoannh13]

Hi, all! So I have a 10 gallon hospital tank that I set up earlier last week. I added 1 new betta to it midday yesterday. I have a new filter cartridge in the HOB filter and I added 1 filter floss pad from a well established tank. This morning I tested the water and surprisingly had somewhere between .5 - 1.0 ppm ammonia. I immediately did a 75% water change and vacuumed the sand in the process. I treated the new water with conditioner and also added 1 ml of Seachem Prime.

I tested the water shortly after the water change and still seeing .25 ppm ammonia. Should I do another water change this evening? Or wait until tomorrow?

I'm very surprised to see ammonia in this tank since I have something in the filter from an established tank and there is only 1 small fish in there for less than 24 hours. I'm stumped so would appreciate any input. Thanks!

p.s. I did test my water source and there is no ammonia there.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Since you tested the water source and it's not from there, then it's from the tank, so you ruled out the other potential source quickly at least
Even seeding a tank with filter media (or a whole filter) isn't an instant cycle I'm afraid. It can take a while for the BB to grow enough to handle the bioload of even a single fish. Always be prepared for at least a mini-cycle in a new set up, even with a seeded cycle.

Yes, do another water change to remove the ammonia, and if you have Prime, it would be good to use that, to keep the fish safe until tomorrow's tests/water change.

Even when I moved a whole, established sponge filter over to a new tank in an emergency - a 15.5 gallon with only red cherry shrimp and a few guppies, I had a mini cycle for a week where it needed 75% daily water changes before the beneficial bacteria caught up to the bioload.

 

[raylove]

Bacteria multiply very quickly, they can double in number every 20 minutes. I think it more likely that you may have transferred too many bacteria to a raw tank with a very small bioload, and hence where there is not enough 'food' to support them. You therefore get an ammonia spike due to the bacteria dying and decaying before an equilibrium is established - this should happen quite quickly as you do of course have the bacteria there!

 

[mrsjoannh13]

Since you tested the water source and it's not from there, then it's from the tank, so you ruled out the other potential source quickly at least
Even seeding a tank with filter media (or a whole filter) isn't an instant cycle I'm afraid. It can take a while for the BB to grow enough to handle the bioload of even a single fish. Always be prepared for at least a mini-cycle in a new set up, even with a seeded cycle.

Yes, do another water change to remove the ammonia, and if you have Prime, it would be good to use that, to keep the fish safe until tomorrow's tests/water change.

Even when I moved a whole, established sponge filter over to a new tank in an emergency - a 15.5 gallon with only red cherry shrimp and a few guppies, I had a mini cycle for a week where it needed 75% daily water changes before the beneficial bacteria caught up to the bioload.

Thanks for the input! You know one of the things I love about this hobby is I am always learning something new. Just when I think I have things figured out I get schooled (pun intended).

I water changed again (my second for today) and now the ammonia is somewhere between 0 and .25. I did dose again with Prime.

I have a hornwort plant arriving tomorrow so I am going to float that in the tank. Hopefully it will help keep the little guy feeling safe and help to remove more of the nasties in the water until everything gets stabilized.

 

[Essjay]

Bacteria multiply very quickly, they can double in number every 20 minutes.

The beneficial bacteria in fish tanks are slow bacteria. It takes over 12 hours for the ammonia eaters to double in number and up to 32 hours for the nitrite eaters.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thanks for the input! You know one of the things I love about this hobby is I am always learning something new. Just when I think I have things figured out I get schooled (pun intended).

I water changed again (my second for today) and now the ammonia is somewhere between 0 and .25. I did dose again with Prime.

I have a hornwort plant arriving tomorrow so I am going to float that in the tank. Hopefully it will help keep the little guy feeling safe and help to remove more of the nasties in the water until everything gets stabilized.

Welcome! I had to learn these things too, since being here, and after adding new tanks!

Another possiblity is that the long established filter you took the floss from might not be housing that many BB anymore. If the tank is long established, especially if heavily planted - the plants suck up a lot of ammonia, leaving less for the BB colonies, which shrink to the right size to handle the remaining bioload. The remaining BB are also all over the substrate, tank walls, decor, even plants, as well as the decor, so it's possible that most of the BB in that original tank are living in the substrate, rather than in the filter, so you'd have less of a starter boost than you'd imagined.

I suspect that's happening in a couple of my tanks. The nitrates in there rarely go above 10ppm, even if I skip a water change, but they've heavily planted, so I think the filters on there are mostly doing the mechanical filtering, while the plants are sucking up most of the ammonia, leaving a smaller amount of BB in the tank overall, and even less in the filter, since they're probably spread out everywhere. I bet if I removed all the plant from that tank, it would mini cycle.

I think @AbbeysDad is who I learned that from, and would be able to explain it better, or correct me if I'm mis-stating something.

 

[AbbeysDad]

As mentioned even though you transferred some media from an established tank, there might not be enough nitrosomonas bacteria yet to process the ammonia. Prime will convert ammonia into relatively harmless ammonium for 24-48 hours even though it will still test as ammonia. As long as ammonia levels remain somewhat low, the BB population should catch up. Watch your fish for any signs of distress and be prepared to do a water change or add more Prime as necessary. At some point, you might consider adding plants, especially fast growing floating plants that will convert ammonia into plant tissue eventually removed with trimmings.

 

[raylove]

The beneficial bacteria in fish tanks are slow bacteria. It takes over 12 hours for the ammonia eaters to double in number and up to 32 hours for the nitrite eaters.

Thanks, I didn't know that!
It does show how hard it is to work out what is going on though. I once had a marine tank filtered just by an undergravel (no living rock). One day the pump failed and suspecting that the gravel would now be foul, I removed the fish to a tiny tank before I turned it on again. When I did the tank water stank and ammonia was off the scale. I didn't know what I would do as I assumed it would be days before the fish could go back and the temporary tank they were in was far too small, with no filter at all. I went to bed despondent, but next morning the smell had gone and all readings were back to normal, so the fish went back in and all was well! Things had gone from disaster to stable in 8 hours, which seems inexplicable to me now I know that the bacteria can't have multiplied in that time! I changed no water as I had no salt water prepared.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thanks, I didn't know that!
It does show how hard it is to work out what is going on though. I once had a marine tank filtered just by an undergravel (no living rock). One day the pump failed and suspecting that the gravel would now be foul, I removed the fish to a tiny tank before I turned it on again. When I did the tank water stank and ammonia was off the scale. I didn't know what I would do as I assumed it would be days before the fish could go back and the temporary tank they were in was far too small, with no filter at all. I went to bed despondent, but next morning the smell had gone and all readings were back to normal, so the fish went back in and all was well! Things had gone from disaster to stable in 8 hours, which seems inexplicable to me now I know that the bacteria can't have multiplied in that time! I changed no water as I had no salt water prepared.

In that situation, perhaps more bacteria survived than you realised. More recent research has suggested that even when you have a big bacterial die off, like you experienced with a filter failure and the smell - that we don't necessarily lose all of the bacteria, that many enter a sort of dormancy. So perhaps more survived than you thought

 

[Essjay]

Are the bacteria in marine tanks the same as in fresh water tanks? I've not thought about that before.......

 

[mrsjoannh13]

As mentioned even though you transferred some media from an established tank, there might not be enough nitrosomonas bacteria yet to process the ammonia. Prime will convert ammonia into relatively harmless ammonium for 24-48 hours even though it will still test as ammonia. As long as ammonia levels remain somewhat low, the BB population should catch up. Watch your fish for any signs of distress and be prepared to do a water change or add more Prime as necessary. At some point, you might consider adding plants, especially fast growing floating plants that will convert ammonia into plant tissue eventually removed with trimmings.

I have water changed enough to get the level down to somewhere between 0 and maybe less than .25 - as of last night. I've yet to check this morning but will do so once the smallest member of the household wakes up. I've been monitoring the fish but he is so chill that it's hard to determine if he's lethargic from being sick or if it's just his laid back personality. I did notice that after the water changes yesterday he started exploring the tank more. So I took that as a good sign. I do also have some plants arriving today. I have a moneywort or a pennywort (some kind of wort!) that I am going to let float and then I have 2 different types of anubias plants so he can rest on the big leaves.

Appreciate everyone's help and advice. Thank you!

 

[Slaphppy7]

Prime is a water conditioner, why are you using another conditioner with it?

DO NOT test for ammonia until 24 hours AFTER a WC, Prime converts harmful ammonia into harmless ammonium, but the API test does not differentiate between the two, which is why you are reading "ammonia" levels immediately after a WC.

 

[raylove]

Are the bacteria in marine tanks the same as in fresh water tanks? I've not thought about that before.......

I think the short answer is no, they are similar but different strains. However, in reality there are quite a few strains in both fresh and salt water which include some that will live in either. I guess it's not a good idea to cross-seed salt/fresh water tanks but other than that, for all practical purposes you can consider them the same.

 

[mark4785]

Seachem prime will halt the natural nitrogen cycle so dont use that; just rely on water changes to remove ammonia. Seeded filter media needs time to adapt to the new water conditions; I once started a fish less cycle in a tank with long established pond filtration media and what I observed was a 1 week pause in ammonia to nitrite conversion and a low oxygen environment.

The best way to start a new tank is to plant it up, under stock it with fish and if you want to add established filter media, only add a very small piece to avoid the tank going hypoxic.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Seachem prime will halt the natural nitrogen cycle so dont use that; just rely on water changes to remove ammonia. Seeded filter media needs time to adapt to the new water conditions; I once started a fish less cycle in a tank with long established pond filtration media and what I observed was a 1 week pause in ammonia to nitrite conversion and a low oxygen environment.

The best way to start a new tank is to plant it up, under stock it with fish and if you want to add established filter media, only add a very small piece to avoid the tank going hypoxic.

I thought @Essjay said that the BB can still process the ammonia while it's bound by Prime? I might be misremembering or misquoting her there though! Hopefully she'll see this tag tomorrow and clear this up