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Amazon sword melting

cooledwhip

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I was at aquatic experience last weekend and bought lots of plants. One of which was a 2 foot plus mother amazon sword. The thing is huge, and had a stem that extended out of the plant, above the water and had flowers on it with lots of runners and other swords attached to it. Now after about a week of being in my tank it's starting to melt, a couple of the leaves are melted. Is it the lighting? Is my light too powerful? It's a single T5HO. Should I cut the extended vine running out of the aquaruim where the flowers were? I'm sure it will produce more amazon swords though right?? I've heard that it gets the CO2 from the surface air and kills the leaves under water as it gets more co2 in air.
 
Lots to explain here, for the complete picture.

The "stem" with flowers is called an inflorescence. All Echinodorus species (the common Amazon sword is most likely E. grisebachii, the "bleherae" variety as often termed) reproduce sexually or vegetatively, depending upon how they are grown. In their habitats, most are amphibious bog plants, spending roughly half the year emersed (growing in very damp soil, leaves fully in the air) and half submersed (the wet or rainy season when the forest floods and the plants are fully underwater). When emersed, the inflorescence will flower (sexual reproduction) and produce seeds; if grown permanently submersed, as in the aquarium, flowers are rarely if ever produced, but daughter plants called adventitious plants will appear from each node, two per node, along the inflorescence.

Nurseries propagate sword plants emersed because it is less expensive and much faster. So when we buy one, it may have flowers. The other thing though is that the air must be very moist, as it would be in the tropics, so the adventitious plants should either be kept submersed at or near the surface, or the tank may be well covered to keep the air very moist and warm, humid in fact. But the light may still be too intense...in their habitat, these plants do not see much direct sunlight because of the forest cover.

Re the CO2. Aquatic plants that grow on the surface, or above it, have what we term the aerial advantage. And this is the ready supply of CO2. It is about four times slower for plants to assimilate CO2 from water than from air. Lower leaves on the parent plant should not be affected by this; once the adventitious plants form leaves and tiny white roots from the nodes, they are no longer deriving any nutrition from the parent plant. You can leave the inflorescence, cut it off, remove some or all of the adventitious plants, whatever. I sometimes leave some plants along the inflorescence as it can be very effective in the aquarium. But one thing I find is that being closer to the surface and the tank light, these plants frequently develop brush/beard algae.

Echinodorus plants are quite heavy feeders, so a root tab next to the roots in the substrate will help a lot. I use Seachem's Flourish Tabs which seem better than the API brand. A comprehensive liquid fertilizer is also beneficial, just don't overdo it, as it can cause brush algae. Especially under a T5 HO tube, which is quite intense light. Some floating plants here would probably help.

Yellowing or dying leaves on the parent plant are normal when the plant is first acquired. It has been growing emersed, and the emersed leaves are different in structure from submersed leaves that will form when the plant is grown fully submersed. You may see quite a change in the leaf shape. This rather depends upon many factors, including the plant itself. This species, E. grisebachii, is now known to contain eight varieties (in addition to the original E. grisebachii) that were formerly considered distinct species, and they have quite differing leaf forms. One may still see plants named E. amazonicus, E. bleherae, E. parviflorius, E. gracilis, and some others, but after detailed phylogenetic analysis, they are all botanically the same species, E. grisebachii, according to the DNA.

Byron.
 
Thank you. I'm just scared that the leaves are melting due to the plant taking co2 from the air. The inflorescence, as you call it, is growing VERY fast and very big. It has lots of little "pods" that I'm sure will sprout amazon swords soon enough. Is there any way to trim it and put it in an emersed setup so I can get the amazon swords that will grow off of it? Thanks
 
Thank you. I'm just scared that the leaves are melting due to the plant taking co2 from the air. The inflorescence, as you call it, is growing VERY fast and very big. It has lots of little "pods" that I'm sure will sprout amazon swords soon enough. Is there any way to trim it and put it in an emersed setup so I can get the amazon swords that will grow off of it? Thanks

As I think I explained, the CO2 has nothing to do with melting leaves.

I would not try to grow the adventitious plants emersed. I previously described the different leaf forms, so this is only complicating matters. Leave the inflorescence submersed, it is easy enough to push this below the surface. Once the adventitious plants have several leaves and show some white roots, they can be separated by gently pulling them downward along the inflorescence. Remember that there will be two adventitious plants at each node.
 
As I think I explained, the CO2 has nothing to do with melting leaves.

I would not try to grow the adventitious plants emersed. I previously described the different leaf forms, so this is only complicating matters. Leave the inflorescence submersed, it is easy enough to push this below the surface. Once the adventitious plants have several leaves and show some white roots, they can be separated by gently pulling them downward along the inflorescence. Remember that there will be two adventitious plants at each node.
Ok so I can submerse the inflorescence under the water? It's like 8 inches but I'll try.

Thanks again.
 
I have has this happen I bought a sword all the leave melted then I got new leaves that looked NOTHING like the one it had when I got it. Like it was said before some aquatic plants can grow to suit the environment.

It will not die Mine is like 5 or more years old and it has changes a bit over the years but still going. I think all it needs is to simply adjusting. Plant the plant how you want it where you want it and wait. These plants are heavy root feeders I like to give mine root tabs. Now mine is in dirt and doing AMAZING!

It might never look the way it did when you first got it. It will be ok with time to adjust. If you have other plants that are doing well I would just give it time.

PS. These plants love iron.
 
Ok how can I get iron into the tank? I do have a dirted tank and i use root tabs.
 
Iron is only one of 17 nutrients that aquatic plants require. Sometimes it helps to dose iron alone, provided sufficient of the other nutrients are present; but most often it is added along with the others in a comprehensive supplement.

Iron should be present in most root tabs. For example, if you are using the Seachem Flourish Tabs, iron is included, along with almost everything else:
http://www.seachem.com/flourish-tabs.php

The problem with dosing individual nutrients separately is the balance. Plants need nutrients in a rough proportion. Too much of one may cause a sort of competition and the plant can shut down uptake of some other nutrients. Excess iron has been shown to cause a deficiency of manganese. Ironically, an excess of manganese will induce iron deficiency, as will an excess of zinc or copper. My point here is that you can't run away with thinking this or that nutrient will necessarily improve things. Which is why comprehensive supplements, like the Flourish Tabs or the liquid Flourish Colmprehensive SUpplement are generally the best method.

The GH also is important. Calcium and magnesium are the principle minerals in hard water, and calcium can compete with heavy metals (iron, zinc, manganese, copper) for cellular uptake.
 
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Yeah I have seachem iron but it's not in the substrate. I personally and from experience believe that the plants absorb MOST nutrients from their roots. Sure dosing liquid helps but eh. I'll try it again. I remember a week or two ago I was dosing wayyy over the recommended amount of iron.. maybe that's why they are melting?? I haven't dosed it in a few days but I'll start with normal amounts.
 
Yeah I have seachem iron but it's not in the substrate. I personally and from experience believe that the plants absorb MOST nutrients from their roots. Sure dosing liquid helps but eh. I'll try it again. I remember a week or two ago I was dosing wayyy over the recommended amount of iron.. maybe that's why they are melting?? I haven't dosed it in a few days but I'll start with normal amounts.

All plants, aquatic and terrestrial for that matter, take up nutrients from water via their roots. Aquatic plants take up some nutrients via the leaves. Therefore, adding nutrients to the water will cover all bases. However, in an aquarium, this carries some risk (algae, fish problems) depending, and with large plants that are heavy feeders (= need a good supply of nutrients) the substrate tab type fertilizers are beneficial. You haven't said which tabs you have, but as I mentioned in my last post (which was in answer to your question of how to get iron) the Flourish Tabs do contain iron, and pretty much everything else necessary.

Dosing iron is risky as I also mentioned previously, and yes, if it is overdosed, the plant leaves can melt. I had this happening with floating plants during my iron experiment. It is the excess iron but also the fact that excess iron causes a deficiency uptake of some other essential nutrients, so it's a double whammy of sorts.

Dosing liquid can be sufficient, if it is a comprehensive mix of most all of them, like Flourish Comprehensive Supplement. Dosing iron separately, even if you also dosed some other nutrients, is not the same thing. And you can't overdose as I have tried to explain.

Again, I would not be quick to start dosing iron on its own. You haven't said exactly what you are dosing, or the tabs you are using, but iron alone is not likely to help much, and may do the opposite.

Byron.
 
Yeah I have seachem iron but it's not in the substrate. I personally and from experience believe that the plants absorb MOST nutrients from their roots. Sure dosing liquid helps but eh. I'll try it again. I remember a week or two ago I was dosing wayyy over the recommended amount of iron.. maybe that's why they are melting?? I haven't dosed it in a few days but I'll start with normal amounts.

You might be over fixating on iron. Remember there are 15 nutrients that are essential for plant growth. If you are short on any one nutrient plants can die and melt. Also overdosing iron can cause other nutrients to become short in supply and those new shortages could cause plants to melt. Dosing with a single nutrient is often no a good idea because it can cause more problems than it solves. Adding just iron should only b done when testing indicates it is in short supply.

The best corse of action when dealing with a melting plant is to fertilize with All of The Nutrients plants need. Flourish comprehensive is a good choice for this.
 

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