All Seems Ok... So Why Are They Dying :(

[Schmill]

Ok, I'm hoping someone out there might be able to help me, because I am all out of ideas...

For the most part all the fish seem lively, active, colourful and generally enjoying life. The exception to this was 2 male guppies who seemed to have lost some colour, and had fins down.
To start with I had:

3 Male guppies, (2 adults, 1 young but old enough to be interested in the girlies!)
4 Female guppies
4 Rainbow Neons
2 Albino catfish
1 Bulldog Pleco

The other day my wife noticed that 2 of the female guppies were 'missing'. This completely purplexed us. They weren't floating, they weren't on the bottom, tangled in plants, or in the filter, just gone.
Decided to keep a closer eye on the tank.
When I went to feed them tonight, the tank was looking on the 'empty' side. Counted the fish, 1 male guppy and 1 rainbow neon missing. After searching around the tank I found the rainbow neon in a plant, not stuck just held there by the flow, but definitly dead. Also the male guppy I found at the filter inlet, again, not stuck, but held by the flow.
Both fish seemed to be free from any damage, lumps, bumps, swellings, or rashes, markings etc, but both dead.

I've performed a full set of water tests tonight but everything came up 'normal' so I am stumped... (results below)

Any thoughts most welcome!

Tank size: 60 Litre

Test performed using API master test kit (liquids)

Ph: 7.6 (maxed out)
High Ph: 7.8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40 (This is normal for me, my tap water doesn't read much below this)
Tank temp: 77f / 25c

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
None other than 2 adult male guppies (when both were alive) seem pale in colour, and were swimming with fins down. The 'junior' male with still brightly coloured, and swimming fins up.

Volume and Frequency of water changes:
Monthly - 50%. Most recent change was about 1 week ago (hence me getting nervous and doing water tests tonight!)

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:
API Stress Coat - Added when water was changed as a 'water conditioner'
JBL Ferropol fertiliser for aquatic plants (liquid)
JBL Kugeln Balls (Basically clay balls with nutrients for plant roots)
BOTH plant feeds state that they have zero NO3 and PO4

The only far outside chance thing that I can think of as a possibility is that the unit the tank is sat on has drawers and 2 cupboards in it. 1 of the cupboards is where I keep the 'fish stuff' including the test chemicals etc, and so I have fitted a saftey catch to the door to stop our young children getting into it. This was fitted probably about 3 weeks ago at least, but it does mean that sometimes the cupboard door has to be 'banged' slightly more than before to get the catch to secure. I don't mean slamming the door, just more force than before. I know fish are sensitive to vibrations, but this can't be it can it?
(Hoping now I haven't sown a seed into everyones mind before I get their impressions of the situation)

What to do? Should I see if I can get some kind of 'blanket' medication to put in the tank 'just in case' ?

 

[5teady_2012]

wilder is the best person to help you with this, im sure she will be along soon

 

[WILDER]

Your tank was overstocked for a 12 gallon.
How old were the guppys.
Do you no if they were wild caught.
Check the fish to see if there producing long stringy white poo, or clear mucas poo.
Any fish gone skinny or bloated up.
Check the anus of the fish to see if its enlarged or red and inflamed.

 

[Schmill]

Really? It was overstocked? I thought it was ok. Plants, fish, and filtration had / have all seemed fine.

Guppys, I don't know what age, but they were bought as 'adult' fish from the shop when I stocked the tank back in May this year.
I have no idea if they were caught wild originally. I bought them from a large fish store that has usually been good in the past, (they sell everything from goldfish, through tropical, marine and koi with prices that would scare almost anyone!)
Poo looks normal from what I can tell.
The 2 original adult guppy's seem to have gone skinny, they are the same 2 who lost a lot of colour and were swimming fins down, (in fact tail fin looks a little damaged). 1 of those is now dead. However the smaller male guppy is full of life and colour.
The 2 female guppys I cannot comment on really, except to say I do pay attention to my tank, and they must have been looking fine right up until they vanished.
The Rainbow Neon seemed exactly the same as it ever was, until today when it was dead.
Anus' seem fine

It's a real mystery to me this one

For reference my original 'stocking' thread is here: Stocking

 

[WILDER]

If they went skinny can bet on your life they had internal parasites, that why I stopped buying guppys as most of them are wild caught and they tend to have camallanous worms. The only med available to treat them is through a vet.
Camallanous worms also cause bacterial infections, thats why when guppys get finrot you can bet there something else going on.
Signs of internal parasites are.
long stringy white poo, clear mucas poo, red poo.
Worms prutruding from the anus.
Being skinny, bloated, or hallow belly.
bent spine.
Inflamed red anus, or enlarged anus.
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/nematodes.shtml

 

[WILDER]

Camallanus
Taken from this link.

[URL="http/www.fish-disease.net/diseases.htm"]http/www.fish-disease.net/diseases.htm[/URL]


Symptoms:

When the fish is stationary, deep red worms can be seen protruding from the anal pore. They are only visible when the fish is still because the worms retreat into the intestine at the fish’s slightest movement. Other signs may include an inflamed and enlarged anus. In severe infestations, the fish may become emaciated and spinal curvature may also occur.



Cause:

The parasitic worms Camallanus Cotti and Camallanus lacustris. These small, livebearing parasitic worms attach to the intestinal walls and rectum with pinchers. The worm’s grip is so tight that any attempts to remove it forcibly will rip away tissue from the intestinal wall. The worm’s pinching causes ischemia (reduced blood flow) to that part of the intestine. In time, the tissue to that part of the intestine will die, at which time the worm will migrate to another part of the intestine. This causes perforations throughout the intestine, which allows other pathogens to gain entry. If the fish is not treated, either the parasite or bacterial will kill the fish. Camallanus infestations occur most often in livebearing fish such as Guppies and Mollies, though infection is possible in all fish. Camallanus infestations are contagious. All fish, including those not yet showing visible symptoms, as well as the aquarium, should be treated.



Treatment:

Treat with Internal Parasite Guard, Pipzine, Disco-Worm, Trichlorfon or Fluke-Tabs as well as a medicated food to prevent a bacterial infection.


When fish go thin it can be old age, fish tb, internal parasites, flukes to velvet.

 

[rhostog]

We also have a cupboard under our tank, and my daughter has let the door slam several times - the fish dart for cover but have shown no lasting ill effects, so I doubt that's the problem. It might stress your fish, but as you have been watching them closely, I think you'd have noticed a change in their behaviour if that was serious enough to be fatal.

You said you're doing large water changes once a month. Your hard water will help to keep the pH stable between changes, but even so I'd suggest it might be a better idea to do more frequent smaller changes.

 

[Athena]

Clamped fins, colour change and listlessness are signs of a bacterial infection. Best treated with something like Myxazin. The fish can appear to be ok apart from the strange clamping tight of fins, they may still be eating normally etc - but unless the problem is treated the fish will eventually die.

Something to keep a watchful eye on with the rest of the fish in that tank. Always a good idea to have a bottle of meds handy so you can begin treating at the first signs of illness.

All the best - Athena

 

[LauraFrog]

When you say rainbow neon - do you mean a neon tetra, or the Neon Rainbowfish melanotaenia praecox? If it was the melo, I'd say the guppies died due to internal parasites (they ALWAYS have internal parasites) and the rainbow died because of the high nitrates - rainbowfish need nitrates kept under 15-20ppm at all times and if your tap water comes out at 30-40ppm you can't really keep Australian and New Guinea rainbowfish.
If it's a neon tetra, they get parasites as well and sometimes dont' even look really emaciated before they die, but the red stripe often fades.

The tank isn't ridiculously overstocked IMO because the filter is holding up. That level of stocking would be a problem if the filter was not processing properly, but if you're doing lots of water changes it should be okay. I would be changing more of the water more often though if you want so many fish in your tank because it is a lot.

 

[Schmill]

Thanks for all the replies.
Are the recommended medications available 'off-the-shelf' ?
Also it is the Neon Rainbowfish (melanotaenia praecox) that I was talking about, not a neon tetra.
I'm confused about the issue of not being able to keep them in water with Nitrates like this though. The fish store is local to me, so their water conditions will be around the same. I don't know how long the fish were at the store for, but they have been in my tank for 4 months now and the other 3 all look fine, (thankfully!)

I think it is worth me having a look at the LFS's tomorrow to see if any of them sell medication for worms / flukes. Does that sound reasonable?
Also is there any form of a general anti-bacterial med that I should get to keep on standby, or shall I just see what they have?

Thanks again one and all!

 

[kuruptedseed]

I too used to do a 50% (or more) water change once a month on my tanks when I was first starting in the hobby... My neighbor got me to start doing 10-15% weekly water changes in my tanks.. I have to say its been the best decision i've made for my fish.. Not only are they much more colorful, active and all around more lively.. but i'm going on 3 years disease free!

 

[Schmill]

Now on day 3 of using API's Melafix antibacterial treatment in the tank, and keeping a watchful eye on the surviving inhabitants.
Thanks for all the advice, I'll start doing more frequent water changes, I just didn't think there was anypoint as all the levels were pretty much exactly the same after a change as they are before, (ph, Ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte). In fact I only settled on monthly water changes as I use a 'gravel syphon' to take the water out and doing it monthly keeps the gravel nice and clean without taking so much out that the plants suffer.

Will let you know how it pans out...

 

[WILDER]

Good luck.

 

[drobbyb]

When you say rainbow neon - do you mean a neon tetra, or the Neon Rainbowfish melanotaenia praecox? If it was the melo, I'd say the guppies died due to internal parasites (they ALWAYS have internal parasites) and the rainbow died because of the high nitrates - rainbowfish need nitrates kept under 15-20ppm at all times and if your tap water comes out at 30-40ppm you can't really keep Australian and New Guinea rainbowfish.
If it's a neon tetra, they get parasites as well and sometimes dont' even look really emaciated before they die, but the red stripe often fades.

The tank isn't ridiculously overstocked IMO because the filter is holding up. That level of stocking would be a problem if the filter was not processing properly, but if you're doing lots of water changes it should be okay. I would be changing more of the water more often though if you want so many fish in your tank because it is a lot.

Hand LauraFrog a gold star! Perfect information about rainbows. I'm a bowhead/amateur breeder myself.

 

[drobbyb]

Thanks for all the replies.
Are the recommended medications available 'off-the-shelf' ?
Also it is the Neon Rainbowfish (melanotaenia praecox) that I was talking about, not a neon tetra.
I'm confused about the issue of not being able to keep them in water with Nitrates like this though. The fish store is local to me, so their water conditions will be around the same. I don't know how long the fish were at the store for, but they have been in my tank for 4 months now and the other 3 all look fine, (thankfully!)

I think it is worth me having a look at the LFS's tomorrow to see if any of them sell medication for worms / flukes. Does that sound reasonable?
Also is there any form of a general anti-bacterial med that I should get to keep on standby, or shall I just see what they have?

Thanks again one and all!

Schmill melanotaenia praecox in the hobby today mostly come from fish farms. Alot that appear in the LFS have been coming in sick and dying from an unknown disease. They are calling it a wasting disease or another term I forget the name. The fish appear normal when all of a sudden they start dying off 1 by 1. I hope these fish aren't suffering this disease. There is no known cure as far as I am aware of.