Advice/pointers For A Newbie Please!

[Haggisman]

So, I appear to have become a fishkeeper! Not that I mind as I've wanted fish for a while, but I appear to be have been thrown in at the deep end!
 
I came home from work about 2 months ago, to be told by girlfriend that our neighbour/her friend was getting rid of their aquarium (including fish) and that she'd said we'd have it; fine I thought, would be nice to have a little tank in the living room.
 
We go over to their house to be greeted by a huge 220L tank which is about the same size as our TV! Anyone, long story short, we drained about 75% of the water, and between 4 of us managed to carry it over to our house and set it up. Refilled it, and let it settle for about a month.
 
The tank was stocked with:

• 8 x Black Phantom Tetras
• 3 x Tinfoil Barb
• 1 x Bristlenose Pleco
• 1 x Clown Loach 

I believe the tank is an Aqua One Regency (based on Google images)
 
About a month ago, we decided we wanted some slightly more colourful fish, so we went to Pets At Home (big mistake!) and asked for some advice on what we could put in. They pointed out a selection of fish which would be fine, so we took their advice and got 6 neon tetras and 2 dalmatian mollies.
 
I'm sure many of you are either laughing or thinking "oh dear" at this point...
 
We followed the acclimation procedure - floated the bags in the tank for 30 mins, then gradually introducing tank water for a couple of hours before transferring the fish. Everything seemed fine, until the barbs started taking a bit too much of an interest in the Neons

 
When we saw one get swallowed whole, we decided it was probably a good idea to separate them, so we caught the neons in the bag they came in, and decided to go have a moan at Pets@Home...
 
I left this to my GF (she's better at the whole angry customer thing), and we ended up getting a free 19L tank to put the Neons in (although had to buy a heater/gravel for it).
 
So, it gets better - I was vaguely aware of the whole ammonia/nitrates/nitrites "thing", so I knew we wouldn't be able to just set up the little tank as it was and it be ok, so we filled it with water from the big tank and popped the Neons in.
 
The next morning, we had 3 left (out the 5 which hadn't been eaten); one was floating, the other stuck up against the filter intake, 2 of the other 3 were looking pretty unhealthy.
After lots of reading online, I came to the conclusion that it was probably ammonia poisoning - they had (red swollen gills). I did an immediate 90% water change (replacing with water from the big tank), and replace the new filter media in the the small tank's filter with a bit of foam from the big tank, but I think it was too late - over the day, the other 2 Neons deteriorated and died - strangely enough, the last one looked perfectly healthy, swimming around quite happily, no red gills (we thought it would be appropriate to name him Neo).
 
At this point we decided that keeping anything the second tank at this point was out of the question (having spent most of the night reading about the nitrogen cycle and understanding what was happening better). Having decided we would prefer to have a school (or 2) of smaller fish, and reading that the tinfoil barbs would potentially grow to 30cm+, we decided to donate them to the LFS, and put Neo back into the big tank, we did, and he was perfectly happy.
 
Roll on 2 weeks, and everyone was happy, but we felt that as a schooling fish, Neo needed some friends, so we went to the LFS and got 10 of them (so 11 in total), again, followed the acclimation procedure, all fine.
 
Being paranoid by this point, we counted the fish daily - a few days later, we noticed we were down to 10 Neons, checked everywhere, and found him inside the filter, took him out and he seemed fine. Another few days later, we were missing one again - looked everywhere, but this time he was just gone

 
We put this down to being a weak fish, and figured he'd died in the night and decayed/been munched by Mr Sucky Fish (pleco).
 
Roll on to last Sunday and I noticed some white spots (looking exactly like Ich) on one of the Phantoms, unfortunately being 4pm on a Sunday evening, the only place open was Pets@Home, so I had no choice but to get some medication from there - I've created another thread asking for help on this (apologies if cross-posting is not allowed!).
 
Anyway, background and introduction out of the way (sorry for the novel!), is there anything I'm doing/not doing which immediately screams "numpty" to the more experienced amongst you?
 
Starting to regret this, as its been a stressful couple of weeks, and I thought fish were supposed to be relaxing?! Don't want to be responsible for any more fishy deaths

 
I also have a query about our filter:
 
I believe the tank has a sump filter in the back of the tank?
 
It has a plastic sheet across the whole back of the tank, with a series of slots cut at the top on one side and a hole with a pipe in the other, behind that is a sealed off section with chambers with foam filters and bio balls:
 
It looks like this - imagine looking at the tank from the front (excuse my "artistic" skills):
 
Plastic sheet in the main tank:
 

 
Section behind:
 

 
Is the orange water level correct (the water level in the filter is lower than the main tank)?

 

[Far_King]

Ok, so there's a lot here to be addressed and I'll try to get around to as much as I can.

Firstly the weir filter.  This water level will be lower as it's being pumped out.  This is normal.  However keep a close eye on it as it does sometimes happen that the pump will pump water out faster than the weir can take it in.  This can be especially problematic if the heater is in the back section of the tank.
 
I would also urge you to rehome the clown loach.  They grow to 15"+ and need others to socialise with.  As big as this tank may seem, it's not large enough for a shoal of Clown Loach and I do wish fish shops made it clearer when they're sold at less than an inch long exactly what needs they have.
 
The pleco and the tetra will all be fine.
 
I'd also advise investing in a master test kit so you can check and confirm your water parameters before stocking further as different fish require different water and it will also enable us to advise you better.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There is so much to take in, but we also need some more information.
 
 
What are the water parameters of this tank?  pH?  gH?  kH?  (This can be tested by the LFS, but do be specific and ask for the ACTUAL NUMERICAL VALUES, not just the old 'its fine' garbage!)
 
Right now your tank is full of fish that prefer softer, acidic water.  Except for the mollies, which I couldn't track in terms of their fate.
 
I agree with F.K. that you will need to rehome the clown loach.  Lovely fish, but really not suitable for many aquariums.  As he points out they can grow larger than 15 inches in the right conditions (aka, the proper ones where they are not stunted in their growth) and require others to be happy... just like the neons and phantoms.  (Imagine 6+ of them, fully grown each upwards to 18inches long in the tank.)

 

[Haggisman]

Thanks for the replies!
 
Apologies, I posted the water parameters in my other thread, but here they are (tested last night):
 
With the API liquid test:

• Ammonia 0
• Nitrite 0 
• Nitrate 20
• PH 7.0 

Water temp 28c 
 
I don't have any tests for the hardness, but I live in Birmingham UK, and I believe the water here is pretty soft as it is.
 
The water levels are staying constant, I figured it's self-levelling (e.g. if more water is pumped out of the filter then level in the main tank rises, meaning the level against the weir is higher and more can flow through back into the filter?)
 
Clown loach is currently ~3 inches long, and the guy we got him from said he'd had him for a while; how quickly do they grow?
 
Edit:
 
Hardness values from my water company:
 
Hardness Level: Soft
Hardness Clark: 2.80
Hardness French: 4.00
Hardness German: 2.24

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Thanks for the replies!
 
 
Clown loach is currently ~3 inches long, and the guy we got him from said he'd had him for a while; how quickly do they grow?

 
Never kept one, so I can't really say, but I fear that the damage might have already been done.  If indeed he had him for 'a while', meaning upwards to a year... then the little fella is likely already dealing with being stunted and may never grow to full maturity. 
 
My understanding is that they grow fairly rapidly at first, up to about 6 inches... and then sort of plateau before slowly growing out to the full 18 inches over the course of a few years.  Properly kept this species can live for about 20 years.
 
http/www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus

 

[Haggisman]

Yeah I think it was about a year, maybe more - does this mean we would be ok keeping him, or should he still be rehomed?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yeah I think it was about a year, maybe more - does this mean we would be ok keeping him, or should he still be rehomed?

 
Always better to go with the right sized tank.  The issue might be that its too late and that fish will never be able to reach its full potential and end up dying 'young'.

 

[Munroco]

I don't understand the hardness values but other than that your water seems just fine. There are very few fish that wouldn't be comfortable with that PH

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Edit:
 
Hardness values from my water company:
 
Hardness Level: Soft
Hardness Clark: 2.80
Hardness French: 4.00
Hardness German: 2.24

 
That is very soft water.  The mollies will not be good there for long.   They should be rehomed immediately.   
 
If you can't rehome them immediately, they can be housed (temporarily) in the smaller tank until you can rehome them.   They would appreciate a bit of mineralization added to the water.  Crushed coral added to the water would be ideal.  Failing that, adding a little epsom salt and baking soda would do the trick.  The key is that they'd needly be acclimatized to these additions SLOWLY, over the course of a week or so.  Placing them into the tank immediately as is (assuming you still have the filter media from the old tank in the filter there) and just placing a bit of crushed coral in the water would be the best solution.  This will slowly dissolve in the tank, increasing the hardness and making them more comfortable. 

 

[Haggisman]

 

Yeah I think it was about a year, maybe more - does this mean we would be ok keeping him, or should he still be rehomed?

 
Always better to go with the right sized tank.  The issue might be that its too late and that fish will never be able to reach its full potential and end up dying 'young'.
 

 
That makes sense, I'll see if the LFS can take him when I go in next
 

I don't understand the hardness values but other than that your water seems just fine. There are very few fish that wouldn't be comfortable with that PH

 
According to this it's somewhere in the 0-50ppm range for carbonates?

 

[Haggisman]

 

Edit:
 
Hardness values from my water company:
 
Hardness Level: Soft
Hardness Clark: 2.80
Hardness French: 4.00
Hardness German: 2.24

 
That is very soft water.  The mollies will not be good there for long.   They should be rehomed immediately.   
 
If you can't rehome them immediately, they can be housed (temporarily) in the smaller tank until you can rehome them.   They would appreciate a bit of mineralization added to the water.  Crushed coral added to the water would be ideal.  Failing that, adding a little epsom salt and baking soda would do the trick.  The key is that they'd needly be acclimatized to these additions SLOWLY, over the course of a week or so.  Placing them into the tank immediately as is (assuming you still have the filter media from the old tank in the filter there) and just placing a bit of crushed coral in the water would be the best solution.  This will slowly dissolve in the tank, increasing the hardness and making them more comfortable. 
 

 
I think this would do more harm than good as the small tank is still cycling (I'm attempting to do a fishless cycle with fish food), 
 
Getting readings of:
 

• Ammonia 0.25
• Nitrite 5
• Nitrate 20
• PH 7.4 

 

[Byron]

You have received good advice in this thread that I will not repeat.  The readings in post #11 are I assume for the small tank; this indicates cycling.  Until ammonia and nitrite are both zero for consecutive days, do daily water changes of at least half the tank.  You could add a bacterial supplement like Tetra's SafeStart, Seachem's Stability, to help in establishing the bacteria.  Ammonia or nitrite above zero is extremely hazardous for fish.  I do not want to alarm you more, but at these levels if correct I doubt the neons or mollies will survive, or if any do, the internal damage will be with them and lead to other health issues down the road.
 
I concur about the mollies, your very soft water will be death to these in a few weeks at best.  Return them to the store.  At this point, I would not start messing with water parameters to increase hardness on top of the other issues.  And increasing the hardness for the miollies will mean trouble for the neons as they are soft water fish.  The two do not mix.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

 


Edit:
 
Hardness values from my water company:
 
Hardness Level: Soft
Hardness Clark: 2.80
Hardness French: 4.00
Hardness German: 2.24

 
That is very soft water.  The mollies will not be good there for long.   They should be rehomed immediately.   
 
If you can't rehome them immediately, they can be housed (temporarily) in the smaller tank until you can rehome them.   They would appreciate a bit of mineralization added to the water.  Crushed coral added to the water would be ideal.  Failing that, adding a little epsom salt and baking soda would do the trick.  The key is that they'd needly be acclimatized to these additions SLOWLY, over the course of a week or so.  Placing them into the tank immediately as is (assuming you still have the filter media from the old tank in the filter there) and just placing a bit of crushed coral in the water would be the best solution.  This will slowly dissolve in the tank, increasing the hardness and making them more comfortable. 
 

 
I think this would do more harm than good as the small tank is still cycling (I'm attempting to do a fishless cycle with fish food), 
 
Getting readings of:
 

• Ammonia 0.25
• Nitrite 5
• Nitrate 20
• PH 7.4 

 


 
You are correct.  Though, salt would be good for the mollies and would keep the nitrite from being an issue.  But, as stated, the BEST move is to get the mollies out now and back to the LFS if possible.  I'd ask for a refund, rather than any type of store credit as well... because this particular store has been giving you nothing but bad advice since day 1... and their advice and 'free' tank ended up costing you money and aggravation.

 

[Haggisman]

You have received good advice in this thread that I will not repeat.  The readings in post #11 are I assume for the small tank; this indicates cycling.  Until ammonia and nitrite are both zero for consecutive days, do daily water changes of at least half the tank.  You could add a bacterial supplement like Tetra's SafeStart, Seachem's Stability, to help in establishing the bacteria.  Ammonia or nitrite above zero is extremely hazardous for fish.  I do not want to alarm you more, but at these levels if correct I doubt the neons or mollies will survive, or if any do, the internal damage will be with them and lead to other health issues down the road.
 
I concur about the mollies, your very soft water will be death to these in a few weeks at best.  Return them to the store.  At this point, I would not start messing with water parameters to increase hardness on top of the other issues.  And increasing the hardness for the miollies will mean trouble for the neons as they are soft water fish.  The two do not mix.
 
Byron.

 
To clarify, all fish are currently in the big tank, which is cycled and has the readings from post #4. The readings in post #11 are from the small tank which is currently empty.
 

 

 


 


Edit:
 
Hardness values from my water company:
 
Hardness Level: Soft
Hardness Clark: 2.80
Hardness French: 4.00
Hardness German: 2.24

 
That is very soft water.  The mollies will not be good there for long.   They should be rehomed immediately.   
 
If you can't rehome them immediately, they can be housed (temporarily) in the smaller tank until you can rehome them.   They would appreciate a bit of mineralization added to the water.  Crushed coral added to the water would be ideal.  Failing that, adding a little epsom salt and baking soda would do the trick.  The key is that they'd needly be acclimatized to these additions SLOWLY, over the course of a week or so.  Placing them into the tank immediately as is (assuming you still have the filter media from the old tank in the filter there) and just placing a bit of crushed coral in the water would be the best solution.  This will slowly dissolve in the tank, increasing the hardness and making them more comfortable. 
 

 
I think this would do more harm than good as the small tank is still cycling (I'm attempting to do a fishless cycle with fish food), 
 
Getting readings of:
 

• Ammonia 0.25
• Nitrite 5
• Nitrate 20
• PH 7.4 

 


 
You are correct.  Though, salt would be good for the mollies and would keep the nitrite from being an issue.  But, as stated, the BEST move is to get the mollies out now and back to the LFS if possible.  I'd ask for a refund, rather than any type of store credit as well... because this particular store has been giving you nothing but bad advice since day 1... and their advice and 'free' tank ended up costing you money and aggravation.
 


 
To clarify, Pets @ Home are a large chain retailer here in the UK, and unfortunately they do appear to have a bit of a poor reputation (which I wish I'd researched first!). We haven't been back there since the first incident (except to get the white spot medication as it was the only place open). When I've been saying LFS I mean a small local aquatic shop who have been nothing but helpful, and seem to know what they're talking about.
 
The mollies were from Pets @ Home, and given it's been about a month since we got them, I doubt they would take them back at this point

The LFS may take them as a donation; if they have space they put them in a "charity tank", and any proceeds from the sale go to animal charities.
 
At least we now have a quarantine tank...

 (well, when it's cycled!)

 

[Byron]

I missed the small tank fishless cycling previously, sorry for the confusion.
 
Sadly, many fish stores are the last place one should use for advice.  There are good stores, those locally owned and staffed by hobbyists are generally better.  But even then one cannot do better than prior research as you've learned.  It can save many a dead fish.  There are many knowledgeable members here who can advise accurately on requirements for this or that species.
 
Byron.