Advice On Stocking A 40L (11Us Gallon?) Tank

[birdhouse]

hello,

i have recently purchased a fishtank for me and my partner to enjoy - we were hoping to keep fancy goldfish after being told we could keep 4/5 in the 40 litre tank but obviously this isnt enough space for them. therefore i have been looking into a few different fish combinations which i think we'd enjoy and would like some advice or reccomendations.

the tank is 33x33x40cm and has a medium/large gravel substrate (quite thin) with 7 live plants (4 large, 3 small) and we have a piece of bog wood we're currently soaking. there are a few pebbles my girlfriends picked up put in as well, but nothing too big. i think we have an amazon sword plant and one of the big spindly plants which grow really fast!

the surface area is approx 16/17 inches and 11 us gallons means ... 15 inches of fish or so? 15 small fish is the rough number we were given by the more knowledgable shop. we have a 100l/h filter (or something similar) which seems more than adequate.

as it was bought as a cold water aquarium there is no heater currently - we could get one but will probably go for a coldwater/subtropical tank ~ 18/20oC

im not especially fond of guppies as they pester other fish if i remeber correctly but my partner likes them. she would really love a goldfish so im not sure if we could keep a couple for a while and then put them in a pond once they are bigger?

cheers.

some ideas,

no heater:

3 mollies
6 platies
5 peppered catfish

5 gold barbs
6-8 guppies
5 peppered catfish

2 comets
6 white cloud minnows
3-4 peppered catfish/2 weather loach

other fish : white cloud minnows/american flagfish/danios

heated:

2 honey/sparkling gourami
6 platies
5 leopard catfish

other fish : open to suggestions! black tetra?

 

[KittyKat]

I would personally stalk the following:

Unheated:
* 6 white cloud mountain minnows
* 2 hillstream loaches

or

Heated:
* 6 Harlequin rasboras OR 6 neon-sized tetras (OR 6 Guppies, I advise against Guppies)
* 6 dwarf corys OR 6 Otos (for more of a challenge, they are not easy)

I would personally under-stock that tank until you have more experience and the tank is established. Maybe after 6-12 months I would increase the stocking to 8-10 WCMM/Rasboras/Guppies/Tetras, not before.

The "x inches per gallon" rule is not that useful, in my opinion, except to prevent particularly stubborn beginners from killing too many fish. (Not implying anything with that!) Stocking very much depends on the species and size of the fish. My favourite guide is "start very low and go from that", it might take a few years, but you will one day be able to come out with a good stocking estimate from experience

p.s. don't forget to cycle the tank first!

 

[Wills]

Hi welcome to the forum! Great time to join the forum right at the start of the hobby Make sure you head to the begginers resource and have a read of the fishless cycling system

First thing to say - its a big no to goldfish in the small tanks they will get stunted which causes all kinds of health problems. Subtropical is kind of okay but for the cost of a small heater - about £10-£15? It will save you a ton of problems and broaden your options massively.

I would also stay away from livebearers in a tank that small as you will quickly get over stocked as they breed - also mollies get too big for a 40 liter tank.

In a 40 liter tank you want to look at fish that have the words, micro, pygmy or dwarf before their name

If it were my tank I would probably do something like

3 Badis fish or 3 Pygmy Gourami aka Sparkling Gourami
8 Galaxy Rasbora or 8 Chilli Rasobra - both of these are microrasbora species making about .5 -.75 inches in length
5 Pygmy Corydoras
3/4 Cherry shrimp

That gives you activity all over the tank with some amazing colours lots of bright reds, greens and blues in those fish and a lot of colour for their size.

Wills

 

[KittyKat]

3/4 Cherry shrimp

Oh yes, forgot these little guys! A from me for them.

 

[birdhouse]

hi kat and willis, thanks for the advice

we had been looking at the sparkling gouramis as they are lovely fish - do you think 1 male and 2 females would be a good group to have (the center-piece group if you will) in the tank?

having activity in each level is something i was looking for - the gourami are a mid to top level dweller? are they a bit fragile or is that only the dwarf gourami?

i would like to try and stick to hardy (and cheaper!) fish to start with as its been a while.

my parents had a fish tank when i was younger (about 10/12 years ago or so) and we kept platies in there amongst other fish - i remeber them being nice little fish with a good temprement and i think we had about 3 generations in our tank before the whole tank died to an outbreak of white spot i dont remember young being a problem as they were lucky to survive, we had 6 to start with and they stayed around that amount. a few other fish i remeber us having were clown loaches, upside down catfish and some barbs (golden barbs i think?)

im not sure if i fully understand cycling - i was going to leave the tank a week or two until the water is clear and take a water sample to our local maidenhead aquatics where they can test it for me. i was planning to add one group of fish at a time with a couple of weeks inbetween (probably the largest first, then the shoal fish and finally the catfish once there is enough at the bottom for them to eat). i live in greater london so have access to a few different fish shops - would a fish survive and hour and a half train journey home from central london? (just been to aquatic designs at lunch time). would you reccomend mail order fish?

cheers

 

[Wills]

Hi if you live in London you HAVE to go to Wholesale Tropicals near Bethnal Green amazing shop! Aquatic Design Center is amazing as well I live in Hull (Yorkshire) and I got my female Nicaraguan (in my pictures) from there haha

Cycling right - on the internet you will get the best piece of advice that you do not get in the shops! Its called the fishless cycle and pretty much fool proofs the first stages of the aquarium.

Basically in a mature tank you have the nitrogen cycle that is a constant series of bacteria using chemicals created by fish poo to create an other chemical like we create Co2 from Oxygen in our lungs.

When a fish poos the poo creates a chemical called Ammonia - Ammonia will outright kill fish but ammonia is present where ever a rotting organic material exists. So this is one of the chemicals I mentioned earlier that is used by a bacteria that lives in your filter the by product of this process is Nitrite which is still a poison to fish but a slightly lesser one but it can still kill and will at least stress the fish to the point of disease. Then again a bacteria develops in the filter to process this chemical into a lesser form of Nitrate.

So the cycle goes

Fish poo = Ammonia (which is processed to) Nitrite (which is processed to) Nitrate (water changes are done to keep nitrate down but it is quite harmless to fish)

So to do this you need a fish with poo to create the ammonia but if the fish is in there and there is no bacteria to process the chemicals the chemicals build up and kill the fish so this is the fishless cycle you use pure house hold ammonia to bypass the need for the fish poo. You can get this from boots or homebase and it does exactly the same job as the fish poo but there is no fish in the tank to suffer or die etc which will mean that you can add just about any species from day one after the cycle is finnished.

The downside to this process is it takes about 6 weeks so its bad in the short term but in the long term it works out better as you are much less likley to have disease outbreaks or fish deaths.

There is a full article on how to measure the ammonia in the begginers resource section which is well worth a read But honestly it is such an easy process but it just takes a few weeks before you get to put fish in the tank.

Wills

 

[birdhouse]

thanks wills,

i have read it and it looks good - but i would really love to have some fish in a bit sooner than december... is it not possible to do it by leaving it for a few weeks with a little bit of ammonia or something added and then slowly add fish? (i.e. add the ammonia now and 2/3 weeks from now having the first 5/6 fish in there depending on levels?)

 

[Wills]

The other option to fishless is fish in cycle. The fish in cycle is quite labour intensive on your part. Just because it means lots of water changes to keep the levels of ammonia or nitrite low for the fish to survive and still poop in the tank to feed the filter this process takes an equally long time but in a small tank its not that much of a chore.

But it is risky


Also its worth mentioning, the bacteria products you will see in the store. Dont buy them they are useless products. The bacteria in your filter need a constant source of ammonia or nitrite and a source of flowing water to carry oxygen to them. They cant get this in a bottle or packet and will quickly die off once it is packaged. The other way it could survive is if it is in a chilled controlled environment to keep the bacteria alive but dormant but this is rarely the case. Additionally with that it has to be chilled right from the factory, through transport and then in the warehouse and then in the shop. So yeah dont buy them they are useless.

Wills

 

[birdhouse]

The other option to fishless is fish in cycle. The fish in cycle is quite labour intensive on your part. Just because it means lots of water changes to keep the levels of ammonia or nitrite low for the fish to survive and still poop in the tank to feed the filter this process takes an equally long time but in a small tank its not that much of a chore.

But it is risky

Wills

thanks for the advice wills - as a bit of an odd ball idea, would two small comet goldfish work as a pair of cycling fish who can then be rehomed to the local school pond once things have settled down a bit? i only ask because my partner is only here until december on this trip and i'd love for her to enjoy some fish rather than it sit idle for the whole time shes here!

cheers

 

[KittyKat]

would two small comet goldfish work as a pair of cycling fish who can then be rehomed to the local school pond once things have settled down a bit?

You can, but it is cruel. Also there is a good chance that the fish will die or at least be harmed visibly. I personally don't think a pair of fish in pain is an attractive sight, even if only for a few months.

 

[birdhouse]

would two small comet goldfish work as a pair of cycling fish who can then be rehomed to the local school pond once things have settled down a bit?

You can, but it is cruel. Also there is a good chance that the fish will die or at least be harmed visibly. I personally don't think a pair of fish in pain is an attractive sight, even if only for a few months.

i wouldnt want to harm any fish - visible or not. i would much rather have a happy little community of fish to enjoy rather than anything else but is there really no way to have a few fish in there before a month or so without hurting them? a small group of small fish after a couple of weeks say? they had tiny tiny white cloud minnows at aquatic design - would 6 of them survive in the tank whilst letting the bacteria build? my reasoning would be that they dont need to eat too much, wont produce too much waste and swim near the top of the tank?

cheers

(not trying to hurt any fish!)

 

[Wills]

The fishless cycle is done to cycle the filter to cope with maximum capacity of fish in the tank. So you could probably do a fishless cycle on full doses with the liquid ammonia for 3 weeksish and then add a small ammount of the fish you want and hopefully the tank will be ready to deal with a few of the fish. I would probably suggest to actually go for something like 2 or 3 male platties at this stage as they are hardy fish and if something were to go wrong with the fast cycle they should survive. Just make sure you get an API master test kit its a measuring kit to test for ammonia and nitrite in the water - test regularly when the fish are in and then if the ammonia or nitrite tests show a reading do a water change to drop the level.

Its not something I would normally reccomend but it might work but you would be somewhat of a guinea pig....

The other alternative would be to ask for a mature media donation - this is where someone would give you some of their dirty sponges which you then put in your filter and instantly cycle your tank. I think there are a few members around the London area (lol big place I know) that might help you out so maybe worth while posting a new forum thread about asking for this and explain about why you want to get fish so fast Im sure someone would help you

Wills

 

[KittyKat]

Well, the other alternative is to acquire some cycled filter media and add that to your filter.. so maybe ask for a donation in the classifieds section?

Aquatic Design [Centre], London? Used to work for them

Edit: yeah, as above, in other words, I should figure out how to read before hitting "Reply"!

 

[birdhouse]

thanks for the replies again guys, i will try posting a thread in the trade forum.

i am going to get a heater/thermometer and a test kit today and try dropping in a little ammonia to get things going and see what happens. we are going to resituate the tank slightly and raise the temprature slowly over the next week. would 2/3 ml dissappear over a week or so? i have looked through the forums and there are a few threads about not cycling in a planted tank.

i think we are going to go for 3 honey gouramis over the sparkling/croakers as they are happy at a slightly lower temprature which opens up fish options. they grow to a similar size as the sparkling correct? would 1 male and 2 females would be a nice group? these will be the centerpiece of the tank

would platies play nicely with the gourami or would the platies nip their fins? i have it in my head that platies and mollies can be fin nippers but im not sure if this is true..

my main concern is really finding some nice hardy little fish to go in once we have got the temp up, the tank settled and a small cycle going at least. would some white cloud minnows be happy ?

cheers

 

[KittyKat]

i think we are going to go for 3 honey gouramis over the sparkling/croakers as they are happy at a slightly lower temprature which opens up fish options. they grow to a similar size as the sparkling correct? would 1 male and 2 females would be a nice group? these will be the centerpiece of the tank

I never had a problem with Sparkling Gouramis at around 20-25°C, what sort of temperatures are you looking at? I would say the largest range of tropical fish is available for about 22-25°C.
Honey Gouramis are larger than sparkling, but only 0.5-1cm in length, although most of the Honeys' size comes from them being more robust in build.
1m 2f is the group you want.

would platies play nicely with the gourami or would the platies nip their fins? i have it in my head that platies and mollies can be fin nippers but im not sure if this is true..

They can be sometimes, but when keeping many females to each male, that has not been a problem for me.

my main concern is really finding some nice hardy little fish to go in once we have got the temp up, the tank settled and a small cycle going at least. would some white cloud minnows be happy ?

You really, really should not be putting in fish until the cycle is complete, at which point it doesn't really matter which fish you put in (as long as they are not scavengers).

Someone else should be able to tell you what the best quantity of ammonia to put into the tank for the quickest fishless cycle is.