Advice On Dirt

[SO19Firearms]

Just a small disclaimer too - Be a bit careful when using techniques like this. It's fine when people have had good results and I'm all for pushing boundaries but it doesn't mean it's always a good idea.
Just proceed with caution generally - i.e. give it a trial before sticking your 900$ discus in...


The above is generally in reference to stuff like Chicken manure used as the source for ammonia in Miracle Gro organic soils etc.

IMO

 

[KevM]

Actually, Diana Walstad has said sand is fine but you should aim for a grain size of 1mm-2mm.

[snip]... and the key factor of the el natural approach is the soil recharging itself and as a result fertilizing the plants which is made difficult by sand caps regardless of grain size.

First of all, that isn't accurate. The reason sand can be more problematic is because it compacts easier, due to grain size - nothing else. Using a larger grained sand will obviously help in that regard. I recommend 1mm-2mm because it is very close in grain size to the 2mm-3mm fine gravel Diana recommends, while still being pool filter sand (which I find to be better for use in an aquarium - less rough for fish, more aesthetically pleasing, etc.). I pointed that out above.  

Have you read Diana's book? I'm not trying to have a pop at you, I'm just wondering because I got a lot of advice on that forum before I had read the book, and after reading it I realised that some of what I had been told was dismissed in the book.

Here is what Diana has said about using sand as a cap:

Sand (either pool filter sand or play sand) is fine.  Just don't make the layer too deep, more than 1" as this will prevent aeration of the substrate.  You never want to "smother" the soil. Eventually, the soil and sand will mix together somewhat.  It's entirely natural and won't hurt anything.  
 
Explanation:  Once the soil stabilizes and soil bacteria multiply after a few months, soil won't generate much turbidity-- if any.  I discuss bacteria biofilms that "glue" the soil particles together and prevent major turbidity in my book, pp 69-71. 
 
The sand (or gravel) layer helps during setup to hold down the soil a little, but I wouldn't think of the sand layer as something that's got to stay "intact" to prevent soil from entering the water.  
 
The soil layer in an established tank should generate no water turbidity.  And if you temporarily disturb the soil by moving plants, the soil particles should settle within a few hours.  Just turn off the filter when moving plants around to allow any particles to settle.

Ryan, I advise you (and anyone else considering this type of setup) to read the book for yourself so that you truly understand what it is you're doing. There are rules to follow and it helps if you have some understanding of the theory behind why you're doing things. I've lost count of the amount of people I've seen posting pictures of their supposed NPTs that have only slightly planted the substrate.

I think it should also be said that this method really limits you in terms of livestock. The tank should be moderately stocked at most and most bottom-dwellers should be avoided. However, if you do it properly, you can make a brilliant (and low maintenance) environment for your fish. I definitely recommend you do your research properly first, though.

 

[Primous]

I wanted to quote you directly but when I hit the quote button I got a mass of grey and it proved difficult to distinguish. But allow me to run through it point by point quoting you directly. Hopefully it comes out ok once posted lol
 
You state that I'm incorrect when it comes to issues with oxygen and then quote Diana...
 

 
Sand (either pool filter sand or play sand) is fine.  Just don't make the layer too deep, more than 1" as this will prevent aeration of the substrate.  You never want to "smother" the soil. Eventually, the soil and sand will mix together somewhat.  It's entirely natural and won't hurt anything.  

 
But I had already stated.
 

Diane walstead, herself has said that capping dirt with sand is a bad idea. If I remember correctly it's something to do with oxygen but other than that I'd strongly advise against sand. Every time I have seen it attempted it has never worked.

 
To be honest I don't see much daylight between what was stated and my response. She used the word "aeration" and I stated that it's "something to do with oxygen" which is pretty much the same thing if not exactly the same thing when taking into account the context.
 
No I don't consider it a "pop" and other than that, the answer to your question is "Yep." I read the book some time ago and then resold it on ebay for a profit a few months later. That last point isn't important to this thread but I included it because I think you fail to realize her book is about 11 years old. Things in the hobby have progressed significantly since it's publication. To be clear, you could follow her exact setup and everything she recommends and have great results but I think the only golden rule of this hobby is the much carted but often overlooked fact that "Every tank is different."
 
I ran a dirt set up for 3 years which by definition was founded on her approach but built completely different to what she states in her book. Stocking, Pressurized C02, WC'S, Light, Filter, and so on all differed and in most cases were the exact opposite to what her book recommended. And I did that by taking advice and threading together my own approach and sticking to what works for me. For instance you state that

I think it should also be said that this method really limits you in terms of livestock. The tank should be moderately stocked at most and most bottom-dwellers should be avoided. However, if you do it properly, you can make a brilliant (and low maintenance) environment for your fish.

 
Would it surprise you to know that I overstocked my dirt tank? And kept both cats and shrimp breeding constantly (shrimp breed regardless but you get my point lol) to the point where eventually I had to give the cats away. I could easily say "This is not correct." because etc etc but that's pointless. I feel the purpose of this forum is to put the info out there and allow the person seeking to take and apply that info as they see necessary.
 
In my new setup once I get my fert dosing down to an exact amount and have that tank running as it should be then my next project is a self sustaining 30 gal. And yes, like any set up/style there is more than one way to do it but I have a pen and pad to hand and I'm running through my third self sustaining read on tpt called: TOM'S BUCKET O MUD"
 
Which I find extremely interesting but completely different to the last self S tank journal I read.

 

[KevM]

Yeah, the quote system is messed up on here! I'll address your points in bullet form:

- I said you were incorrect because you claimed she had said it was a "bad idea", when she actually said it was "fine". You also claimed sand was inferior to gravel for this type of setup "regardless of grain size", which simply isn't true. Grain size is literally the only reason gravel is the preferred choice. I had already (before your post) acknowledged the need to ensure the cap isn't too deep.

- I am aware that things have moved on somewhat since her book was released, but the science behind the success of the method hasn't changed at all. Sure, some people may have put their own spin on the method and had success, but there's also been plenty of failures (many of which have been documented on the apc forum) due to unnecessary changes to the method.

- It wouldn't surprise me at all to know that you overstocked the tank successfully - that is easily achieved when stuff is slowly breeding in a mature setup, particularly one with the huge biological filtration that is possible in an NPT. It is wise to advise against starting out with a heavy-load in an immature tank, though; wouldn't you agree?

- I particularly agree with this part of your post: "I feel the purpose of this forum is to put the info out there and allow the person seeking to take and apply that info as they see necessary". I hope you realise that my defence of pool filter sand was an attempt of the above, rather than a swipe at you. I just didn't want him to think he had to write off sand altogether when he has other options.

I believe the journal you refer to was posted on the planted tank forum (I don't think I'm allowed to link to it on here)? If so, I think I read that a while ago and found it very interesting. Like you (I'm guessing), I am very interested in creating self-sustaining environments for my fish. Unfortunately for me, my current obsession with Mbuna has severely limited my scope for creating such an environment.

 

[stu40]

Tom's excellent work is on here Bucket of mud
2 words-Gravel tidy

 

[KevM]

Ah, good man!

 

[Primous]

Tom's excellent work is on here Bucket of mud
2 words-Gravel tidy

 
 
When I saw that tank and uttered these two words to myself "Good" and "Grief" It's moments like that when you realize you are indeed crazy about this hobby. lol and I agree with your two words.