Advice For A New Planted Tank

[Solomon]

Hello,
Been reading the threads on this site for a few weeks now and having been soaking up loads of info.

I've been keeping an aquarium for a couple of years now, with moderate success with easy plant species like vallis (using low lighting, no CO2 or ferts), but have only recently caught the planted tank bug!


A few months back I got a new Juwel Rio 240 (about 63 US gallons) and its been waiting to get set up. But I've been holding off whilst I try and get hold of the right 'ingredients' for a successful planted tank. Budget won't strech to far but so far I intend to use the following, some of which I've already bought and would be really grateful for any thoughts or advice:

Substrate:Laterite first layer and either playsand or fine gravel on top (undecided on top layer but playsand is cheaper!)

Lighting: Using the light unit supplied plus additional ballast/s -
2x 38w Dennerle Trocal Special Plant
1x (and hopefully '2x' if budget will stretch to another ballast!) Arcadia Freshwater 38w

CO2: 3 x Hagen Nutrafin CO2 Fermentors (with DIY mix) - one cannister changed every 5 days (Please tell me these will be enough!!)

Filtration: Standard Juwel Filter supplied but with a 'downgraded' powerhead to reduce water movement (the one supplied is 1000 litres p/h -I intend to use the powerhead from an old Juwel Rekord 70 which is about 400 litres p/h. Also removing the active carbon and nitrate removal sponges supplied with tank, replacing with standard Juwel filter media sponges for additional 'bio-capacity') I may possibly add RowaPhos to the filter as my LFS tells me we have high levels of Phosphate in the tapwater, which leads me to......

Water: Undecided at present as to whether to go for treated tap with RowaPhos in filter for balance or get total control by buying an RO and having an RO/Tap mix. I appreciate I need to do some further research/testing on the tapwater before making a decision here.

Plants: Taking the general consensus of people on this site I'm going to plant heavy, mostly with Vallis, Hygrophillia Polysperma, etc. to begin with and then balance out with some more attractive species later on. (I'd really like a 'carpet' in the foreground -Riccia would be fantastic but not sure about my light levels??)

Fertilizing: (And this is where I'd really like some advice). I've been trying to get my head round EI and although I can't quite understand it I can clearly see the logic in it and appreciate that it has produced great results for most in this forum. However, the idea of trying to master EI as well as getting to grips with a 'proper planted tank' has been putting me off. However, I've recently read up on the Dennerle fertilizer system and was thinking it might be an ideal middle route to see me through the first year or so until I'm ready to move on to EI.

I can't find much reviews of these ferts by normal 'non-industry' people on the net. It all seems to make sense in principal, and seems to include some of the principals of EI, but before I make the plunge and place an order (probably with 'newleaf' in North Yorks, UK) I'd really appreciate some views on these ferts, particularly with anyone who's used them.

I've read that gf225 appeared to have some success in early days with them but them seemed to move on to EI.


Any comments on this or the above proposals for a setup would be really appreciated,



Ta (and sorry about the 'epic' above)

 

[George Farmer]

Welcome to the Forum Solomon!

It is a refreshing sight to note that you have done your homework prior to seeking further advice. Here’s my thoughts.

Substrate

Your substrate choices sound fine. Playsand or fine gravel will both work well mixed with laterite. Beware that common gravels contain lime and can raise your pH and hardness levels. To prevent the sand compacting you can run a heater cable or just prod it now and again. Heavy plant growth should prevent most problems associated with substrates i.e. Hydrogen sulphide pockets, excess anaerobic bacteria (some is necessary) etc.

Ensure you rinse your substrate and laterite well prior to addition. This will take hours but it is worth it not to see a cloudy tank for days.

Lighting

Your lighting also sounds good. 4 tubes would be ideal lighting in your size tank and allow you to grow most plants with ease; glosso etc. 3 tubes would be pushing your luck but you may have good results if your CO2 and water chemistry is top notch.

As you’re probably aware I had good results with a mix of the Dennerle and Arcadia FW tubes. Unfortunately the latest cheap tubes I use (Sylvania Activa 172 6500K - £4.89) aren’t available in your 42” size. One word of caution that the Dennerle Special-Plant tubes (3000K) produce a very orange light, not to everyone’s taste. Two of these mixed with just one FW may result in a too orange light. Have you considered Interpet Daylight Plus tubes? These produce a very natural light, great for greens especially. If you wanted a good mix then combine with a FW and Dennerle.

It’s really your choice as with your lighting levels and CO2 then tube spectrums aren’t really important

CO2

CO2 wise I’d definitely recommend a pressurized system in a 240 Litre. You could probably buy a system of e-bay for the price of 3 Nutrafin units – buying the cylinder and reg etc. separate can be cheaper. If you insist on the Nutrafins then you will be swapping a unit’s mixture almost every day to keep a sufficient and stable CO2 output.

Filtration

Personally I’d keep the 1000lph powerhead. The rated flow rate will drop considerably once your sponges are mature. If you change to a 400lph you will compromise your bio-filtration – the Rio 240 sponges are designed for use with the supplied powerhead. Also the decrease in designed water circulation may result in dead spots in the tank, a BGA trigger. Just point your filter output as to minimise surface agitation. Despite what you may have read, the latest thinking in planted tanks is that water circulation should be around 3 times tank’s volume per hour, not under 1 times per hour as some old-school sources state. So with mature sponges a 1000lph would probably be ideal.

Water and ferts

Any nitrates and phosphates present in your water will be beneficial to the plants. Please don’t use removal media unless you’re reading mega levels. Nutrient-rich tap water means that you won’t need to dose so much KNO3 and KH2PO4, thus saving you money (and media isn’t cheap either).

Mixing tap and RO is ideal if you have rock hard tap water and you want to grow more demanding plant species or have softwater fish. This is why I mix.

Your planting plan sounds ideal. Vallis does prefer harder water.

EI is daunting at first but well worth the effort. Let me know your tap water levels of nitrate and phosphate and I’ll work out a basic schedule for you assuming that you’ll be getting good growth rates.

There is simply no need for expensive Dennerle ferts. You can achieve exactly the same results by using much cheaper trace mix powder. Dennerle ferts also do not provide nitrates and phosphates which you will need I expect. They have nothing in common with EI and are designed for tanks with only low-moderate lighting. Hence their non-NO3 and PO4 content.

 

[Solomon]

Thanks.

It's great to have expert advice available from someone who isn't trying to sell me something! and very nice of you to share it too.


I'm going to order nitrate and phosphate test kits this weekend. (probably get the hagen ones)

Hmmm, I'm beginning to see a possible problem here. If money was no option I'd definately get a pressurized CO2 system and go for 4 tubes (2.4 wpg).

However, I know that if I blow the money on a pressurized system there's little chance of me getting the extra lighting and the rest of the kit I need to complete the setup (or at least not for a very long time)

Unfortunately I'm beginning to see myself steering away from the high tech option (and before I've even started too! ) Unless someone can recommend a good fermentor system that I could use multiple units of for a larger tank??

I never ever thought I'd say this, but I wish my tank wasn't so big now! High tech in 240 litres is expensive!

Maybe I should see what can be achieved with 3 tubes (1.8 wpg) and a lower amount of CO2 from a few fermentors, perhaps reducing dosing from normal levels.

It's just that I suppose I'll have less control that way, with slower plant growth perhaps making it easier for algae to get a hold.

I'm just rambling now!


I'll have a think and do some testing.

 

[Solomon]

Ok, some positive (and hopefully not wishful) thinking......

I've been reading the EI article again and it's definately starting to sink in and make sense. Glad Zig included a link to that calculator though, it makes things a lot easier!

So, I'm prepared to give EI my best shot and the test kits are on their way.

What do you think about using EI on a smaller scale, i.e. with less light and CO2 than specified in the article (extra ballasts but CO2 from fermentors)?:
What I was thinking was that maybe I could either:

a. maintain lower parameters of the different ferts to allow for the slower growth dictated by the lower CO2 and light and just apply the same EI principals and dosing patterns

or

b. aim to attain the normal ideal parameters, as outlined in the method, but just adjust the dosing pattern, -dosing less often.



The first option seems to make more sense to me, but then it's late, and I've probably missed out c, d and e anyway!

Any thoughts?

Sol

 

[qwikimpss]

With 1.8 WPG you probably wont need CO2. A general rule is less than 2 WPG and it's not nescessary....or so I've read on here!

 

[George Farmer]

With 1.8 WPG you probably wont need CO2. A general rule is less than 2 WPG and it's not nescessary....or so I've read on here!

With 1.8 WPG in 240L CO2 is essential otherwise there will be a very fine line between plant and algae growth.

Solomon - You could get your pressurized CO2 now and always upgrade your lighting later when you can afford it. Even CO2 with the two tubes (and reflectors) will boost growth. In fact a good friend of mine, gt568, does exactly this in his Rio 240. He has a JBL Profi 2 sytem with the supplied Juwel "warm" tube and an Interpet Triplus with reflectors. He doses trace via a dry powder mix and has very good results with his plants, and most importantly - no algae. This could be the "middle-tech" option that you're after.

 

[Solomon]

Thanks for the replies guys.

George: 'Middle tech' -I like the sound of that!

I think I'll definately be aiming to go pressurized at some point in the future then.

The question of 'when' will be decided on what my test kits reveal about my tapwater when they arrive.
The guy at a LFS told me today that phosphates were at 25ppm in our tap!
I find this difficult to believe (especially when they sell RO units )

If tests reveal this is the case then I presume an RO is going to be a good investment so I'll probably get one of these first and get three Nutrafins for the time being until I have the money to get a pressurized system.
-I can always use two of the units in my Rekord 70 when I go pressurized in the big tank.

From Jimbooo and gf225's advice this seems to be the best option if this is the case.

If my tap's ok though I think I'll take the plunge with pressurized.

George: You seem to be quite pleased with the performance of your CO2 system. Is it the Dennerle Classic Line Professional? (I've been trying to work it out from the pictures on the 'New Leaf' site!)

I'm not sure whether I'll be able to get refills around here though so the Comfort Line Pro might be a better option for me. I hope it'll be enough for my tank (New Leaf state good for up to 300l)
I know it's impossible to give a precise answer, but how quickly do you reckon I'd be getting through those 500g disposable bottles, presuming that my ph and kh are at sensible levels?


I must have really caught the bug -there's no way I'd have even considered buying a pressurized CO2 system a few months ago -it's all the cracking tank photos on this sight -you lot are going to cost me a fortune!!

Sol

 

[nodding_dino]

Hi Solomon,

you are in a very similar position to me a few months ago...your getting some great advice from some real planted tank stars, so I won't come in a try to offer much more...but having read this last post, I would *really* consider the Dennerle pressurised system...changing more than two of the hagen units becomes a real chore REAL fast, you will also have the benefit of a stable PH...you will have to work extra hard to keep it bang on with the Hagens. One other thing, as for recharging the CO2 cannisters, you will find that most fire extinguisher places will fill them for you, some for as little as a fiver. It's probably far cheaper in the long run. Take a look on yell.com to see if you have somewhere local....it's a lot cheaper than taking it to a local aquarium shop!

Best of luck with it all, ND

 

[George Farmer]

George: You seem to be quite pleased with the performance of your CO2 system. Is it the Dennerle Classic Line Professional?

That's the one. I can't fault it.

There are five Maindenhead Aquaric outlets in South Wales. Check this out - http/www.fishkeeper.co.uk/

I'm sure most will exchange full CO2 bottles for empties, this is what I do and it costs £9.

A bottle will last you approx. 6 weeks I'd say, more if you used a solenoid.

 

[Solomon]

Thanks guys.

Nice tip there Nodding Dino -I've had a look in Yellow Pages today and could see a couple of firms that might be able to provide refills -no answer on phone today as it's Saturday but will find out in the week.


Bought a few more bits and pieces today and the pile of equipment is mounting up!


Just want to get started -looking forward to starting a journal when I do.


I'll post again when I know my tap water quality -think I'll be needing some advice


Sol

 

[Solomon]

Ok. I tested my tapwater today and got the following results:

PH 7.2
KH 2-3 dKH
GH 4dGH
NO3 7mg/l (am I correct in thinking that mg/l is an equal unit to ppm? -i.e. 7mg/l = 7ppm?)
PO4 5mg/l+ (test kit only measures up to 5mg/l and I believe it could be well in excess of this)



Any thoughts/advice re the use of this water in my planted aquarium?