Adding Dechlorinator.

[KirkyArcher]

Dechlorinators tend to reduce the amount of oxygen in the tank and even Prime needs to be half dosed if the tank water temperature is at certain degree(can't quite remember what temperature exactly)

Temperatures greater than 30 ºC use half dose! as shown in post #9 the photo of a bottle of Seachem Prime

 

[snazy]

Thanks KA. I should have gone and read my own bottle.
 I personally fill my tanks with a hose and dose the recommended amount for the volume of the entire tanks but I've only used Prime and API and I don't overdose unless if I did by accident but I did overdose API stress coat on purpose a couple of times in the distant past and my fish didn't like it to the point I had to redo the water changes. I don't know if they would have died if I didn't react immediately but the signs were fish running to the surface, scraping themselves, swimming irratically, etc..  I've mentioned it here a couple of times and it was my corys that had adverse reactions. I stopped using API stress coat for that reason just in case.
 
Anyway, here is a bit more interesting info about sodium thiosulphate that may prove useful to some:
 
When the water is treated with chloramine, the standard dose is at least twice as much
as for chlorine to break the chlorine-ammonia bond, release the ammonia
and neutralize the chlorine. This was exactly the case in Edmonton,
Alberta in the early 70's where the common strategy of using 4x dose was
historically suggested. This never caused a problem except in one
particular set of circumstances....when an aquarist simply replaces
evaporated water and uses an even more excessive dosage rate (about 10 x standard chlorine recommendation) and never removes and replaces water for a standard water change. In this case, besides the tremendous
problems the building wastes of the tank incur, the sodium thiosulphate
will precipitate in combination with chlorine to the bottom of the tank
and build up concentration. When it reaches a critical concentration,
since all it can do is stay in the tank, the reaction (sodium
thiosulphate reacts with chlorine and forms a precipitate) reverses and
can, under severely neglected conditions seem to release chlorine back
to the tanks. Just one more reason to encourage all aquarists to
properly maintain the tank with standard water replacement rather than
simply filling when evaporation is encountered.

Hope that helps in your arguments about safety. As I said, the above
case is very radical, tanks had to be neglected and overdosed on a very
regular basis for at least a couple of years, so in most cases the fish
will die of neglect and horrendous environment long before the chemical
reaction is allowed to reverse.
 

 

[star4]

 Anyone can make a mistake like that and it's really horrible what happened.
  It seems that this Pond medic is a highly concentrated pond dechlorinator so the miniscule amounts you used to treat the replaced water was actually more than enough to treat the entire tank possibly. It's the same with "Pond" meds. They are way more concentrated than normal aquarium meds and even here I've seen comments about recommended dose of certain medication where in fact the OP may have the more concentrated version of the med and can potentially kill the inhabitants should they make the mistake to follow the "general" advise.
 
Dechlorinators tend to reduce the amount of oxygen in the tank and even Prime needs to be half dosed if the tank water temperature is at certain degree(can't quite remember what temperature exactly)

 
 
I do know how to treat the tanks, I wc 15 tanks a week and have used Kockney Koi now for 3-4 years (that is over 3000 water changes without a problem) . The reason I made this mistake was down to essjay's post about when filling with a hose, (which I do), clearly stating you should treat the WHOLE tank with dechlorinator not just the water replaced. From the wording of the post it applied to ALL dechlorinators, not just prime, as it now appears to be.
 
The whole reason for my post is to warn other people who use hoses to fill their tanks and to check with their own product before following that advice and suggest that the post be changed to prevent this happening to someone else.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

star4- read the Kordon site for Amquel Plus which is their version of Prime. The two products aim for the same results but they are clearly different. Seachem tells you to dose up to 5 times in some cases. I found nothing like this on the Kordon site. But for the relevant part:
 

 
The use of one standard dose of AmQuel Plus for the amount of water involved is recommended per 24 hour period during the first days for total or major water changes, and at least once a week for the entire water volume in regular use, whether water changes are made or not. The number of treatments to be made over time depends upon how crowded the water conditions are with fish and/or other aquatic life. The AmQuel Plus will penetrate throughout the water, including the water in the gravel, sand, or other bottom material. If excess AmQuel Plus is put in the water, it will remain active until chorines, chloramines, or nitrogen compounds appear in the water that it can detoxify......
TOXICITY
AmQuel Plus is non-toxic when used as directed. Many hundreds of kinds of freshwater and marine fishes, aquatic invertebrates and plants have been exposed to multiple full doses of AmQuel Plus during extended test periods and general use with no toxic effects. AmQuel Plus does not reach toxic levels even in cases of accidental or purposeful overdosing. AmQuel Plus is non-toxic to humans and no special precautions are necessary in handling this product.

from http/www.kordon.com/kordon/products/water-conditioner/amquel-plus#dosage!
 
There are a few other interesting differences between the two products- Prime dissipates whether fully used or not in the water, Amquel does not. It satys active until you change water or more stuff appears on which it can work. But Kordon says to add a full dose based on tank volume weekly regardless of water changes being done or not. Not Kordon states overdosing is not toxic. So Prime is not unique in this respect.
 
I have very little hands on experience with dechlors as I have a private well and have no need to treat my water. I have both Amquel and Amquel Plus on hand for other reasons. I bleach things and sometimes use Amquel to neutralize the bleach. I ship fish and use a bit of Amquel in the bag water. I do travel for fish related thing and I usually bring along a bottle of Amquel plus in case I need to treat tap water away from home. However, if I had to choose between Prime And Amquel Plus, I would use the latter, even if it cost more since I do not want to add anything that says it  "promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat" to my tanks. However, I think I would be more likely to use the old Amquel. I am not concerned with wanting to neutralize nitrite and nitrate and see no need for this capacity in an established tank. In fact I think I would not even want to detoxify ammonia in such a tank. The amount created by breaking chloramine apart should be handled by an established bio filter pretty fast.

 

[Essjay]

When I made that statement, I was quoting someone else from quite a long time ago on this forum. The trouble is that I may have saved the info but I didn't save the exact quote or who made it or how long ago it was. It was in the days before I copied and pasted quotes together with where I found them; I just made notes in my own words of what the posts said.
 
 
The original post talked about DOCs reacting with the active ingredient in dechlorinator, it uses up some of it so there's not enough left to remove all the chlorine in the new water. It was talking about all dechlorinators not just Prime.
 
 
If someone can contradict what the orginal post said, I would be glad to hear it.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

Sorry to read of your misfortunes, star.
 
Seachem Safe might be worth looking at as an alternative dechlorinator, it is super concentrated Prime in powder form, 100mg treats 100l of chlorinated tap water (130mg? for chloramine treated water). I have a relatively modest 6 tanks in operation and I've barely used ~25% of the tiny 50g "guinea pig" bottle on weeklly ~50% water changes, which cost me just over £7, buying in bigger containers is even more cost effective.

 

[snazy]

The reason I made this mistake was down to essjay's post about when filling with a hose, (which I do), clearly stating you should treat the WHOLE tank with dechlorinator not just the water replaced.
 

 
I understand that. I treat the entire tanks myself and this I consider a standard dose so I am not really sure what is considered "overdose" from the pond dechlor you use

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Consider this:
 

 
Q. Pardon if this has been answered before. I seem to remember seeing it somewhere on this forum, but can no longer find it.

One of my tanks is on the nitrite spike phase of a fish-in cycle. With 2ppm of nitrite daily, I've been dosing Prime daily at a 3x dosage. Since both Prime and Excel have reducing agents, I've stopped using Excel for fear oxygen levels would become too low for my otos and cory cats. But since stopping the Excel (it's been 5 days now), the algae in my tank is making a comeback!

So, can you confirm for me? Is it is safe to use Prime at a 3x dosage together with Excel at the larger water change dosage, or no?
 
A. You are correct that you should not dose Prime together with Flourish Excel because they are reducing agents. If you are cycling you can add Prime every 48 hours; no need to add it daily. It is better to be safe and not use them both; especially at the higher doses.

from http/www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=7007
 
I have not seen this stated on the Prime or the Excel info, have you? Lets suppose a person added both of these in close proximity and in sufficient doses such that fish died. Which of the two products do you think the person would blame? My guess would be whichever of the products was added second if not something else entirely.
 
All of this illustrates how woefully little most of us really understand about the chemistry and biology of what is actually going on in tanks. I never had a clue about the above despite having been an Excel user for well over 10 years.
 
 

 

[Essjay]

Finally found the post here , the reply by OldMan47
 
I always listened to everything OM47 said, so if it is not true I will stop repeating it.

 

[star4]

I see. However I can appreciate that filling a bucket and putting in the right amount of dechlorinator in the first bucket and adding it to the tank leaves "left over dechlorinator in the tank, until the next bucket is poured in, which then could be working on other chemicals in the tank and by the time you get to the last bucket all the dechlorinator has gone??!! not fact just guessing . However filling with a hose and adding the right amount for the water being changed its a constant feed, therefore the dechlorinator doing its job instantly, I dont know I am not a scientist.
 
Maybe just repeat what he said about buckets

 

[Ch4rlie]

I see. However I can appreciate that filling a bucket and putting in the right amount of dechlorinator in the first bucket and adding it to the tank leaves "left over dechlorinator in the tank, until the next bucket is poured in, which then could be working on other chemicals in the tank and by the time you get to the last bucket all the dechlorinator has gone??!! not fact just guessing . However filling with a hose and adding the right amount for the water being changed its a constant feed, therefore the dechlorinator doing its job instantly, I dont know I am not a scientist.
 
Maybe just repeat what he said about buckets

 
Think what is meant is each dosage of dechlorintor is to the amount of water in each bucket.
i.e 10 litres of water in bucket, you dose dechlorinator to 10 litres.
 
Not dosing full tank volume in one bucket, just the relevant dosage for each bucket as you fill tank.

 

[Essjay]

There are several posts by OldMan47 that recommend adding the amount of dechlorinator to threat the whole tank volume when using a hose not just adding all the dechorinator to one bucket -
 

Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:52 PM
 
Don't forget that if you are using a hose, the hose must be clean or freshly flushed and the dechlorinator is for the entire tank volume, not the change that you are making with the hose.

 

 
Posted 04 February 2010 - 01:42 AM
 
.......The difference between treating a whole tank, when using a hose, and treating a bucket is quite simple. When you add to a tank, the dechlorinator interacts with organic nitrogen material in the water to neutralize it. In a mature tank, there are tons of natural nitrogen sources that will use up some of the dechlorinator so the recommendation becomes treat the whole volume including the new water. In a bucket situation, the only chlorine present is in the form of the added chlorine, which takes a lot less dechlorinator to handle it. There is almost no organic material in a bucket situation so you need not account for it in your water treatment.

 

Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:09 PM
 
Why not do it the really easy way? Connect a plastic hose to the faucet and run it into the tank. When the tank is full shut off the faucet. If you do that, just add some of the dechlorinator at the beginning and some near the end of the fill. When adding water directly to a tank, you use enough dechlorinator for the whole tank.

 

Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:47 AM

If you use a dechlorinator for a water change you treat the water being changed while it is still in the bucket. If you feed the water straight into the tank though a hose you treat for the whole tank. The difference is that dechlorinator becomes de-activated by being in the presence of organic materials which abound in a fish tank. There are no organics to speak of in the bucket. When used in the tank itself it takes far more dechlorinator to do the same work on the chlorine. That is why they tell you to treat for the whole volume.

 
 
 
 
Since it now seems that this advice is wrong, I won't repeat it in future.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I am aware this is a fairly old thread, but this discussion recently came up on another thread, and I wanted it noted for star4 or anyone else reading this, specifically essjay, that the post in question has been updated with the 'new' information.
 
 
I suppose the main thing to remember is that each product is different and that caution must be taken whenever doing something not specifically mentioned in the directions.  With all products care should be given to THOROUGHLY read the directions so as to avoid these types of mishaps for the future.
 
Edited post:
 

When you add unconditioned water via a hose pipe, if you add  enough conditioner to the tank to treat only the new water, some of it will react with other chemicals in the tank so there won't be enough to treat the chlorine and the other chemicals. Some chlorine will not be removed. You have to add more than the amount to treat just the new water in these circumstances, and the usual 'rule' is to add enough for the whole tank volume not just the new water.
 
If using abucket to refill it is easier to add a bucket's worth of conditioner to each bucket.
 
 
 
MOD EDIT:  This is not a practice that is safe for ALL dechlorinators.  It certainly is safe with Seachem Prime, but a quick read of the back of 'POND MEDIC' indicates: "DO NOT OVERDOSE". 
 
A final note to members, please remember that when reading advice like this on the forum, the ultimate decision lies with you.  The members from this forum span the globe, and what products and practices work in one part of the world with certain products may not work in another part of the world, or with other products.

 

[star4]

 Top job