Ada Substrate Ferts .... Worth The Cost?
- Thread starter craynerd
- Start date
It was worth a try! There's no way I am going to be able to get you guys to buy the powersand is there? If I told you they came in funky metallic square bags would that make any difference? They do you know..... 
plantbrain
Fishaholic
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I don't know why folks think I should not be questioned or look under other stones I might have not looked under.
Does not matter who the person is, they often over look things.
I try to be right about most things and sometime flip flop as I learn more myself.
If so, I'm honest with myself and other folks about it.
That type of behavior should be encouraged. Question everything, prove it to yourself honestly and try to be open and see if holds water.
I had no issues questioning the top folks when I got on the web in the mid 1990's, they had PhD's etc. Now I'm getting me one, haha. Am I smarter now? Not really, I just did some more work than the other folks.
Same here.
Rather than buying things for peace of mind, I would rather know if the stuff has any significant impact on plant growth. So you set up several small tanks(easier to replicate, cheaper etc), and do different treatments, some with ADA AS alone, some with PS.
Some with Bacter, some with Tourmaline, some who knows what all.
I think for LFS's, PS and PS special have some use, for folks clueless and wanting the tank right away, PS might fill a need.
ADA design these items for folks who do not know what KNO3 is , or has any chem background, most web savy folks do.
They save the $$$ this way.
If you already know all that, then PS is a waste for you.
But LFS that might neglect dosing etc, then it is useful.
It's just pumic, peat, and some macros(mostly NO3).
Tourmaline is quite another matter.
This is about all that funky crystal healing bioenergy homepathy pseudo science quackry.
Penac is also sold by ADA, does not mean it works for feces.
Snake oil as far as I can tell and unless I'm proven wrong, I will attack such psuedo science quacks with barbaric savagery.
Do some googling on either product.
I think you'll see the point.
Lots of pretty fuzzy wording, no meat on the bone.
If it did do what they said it does, I can assure you the ag folks here would be using things that increase growth of plants by 50% and if it had merit, they could secure the funding and do the research to show it's has significant impacts.
But this is not about science, this about making money marketing a line of products, some of which do and don't work as claimed.
The issue is figuring out which do and don't.
Dupla claimed heating cables where the cat's meow.
I've been rentless on this one.
I've never seen anything to suggest either in the research nor in practical terms they work, so just because some company claims something, certainly does mean a hill of beans.
These same companies also make the claim that excess PO4/NO3 also cause algae, yet when I repeat this treatment to their claim, I am unable to induce algae over a very very wide range of concentrations.
Still believe everything you read?
I hope you question me and use that same prejudice to question these companies and their claims before spending your hard earned $$$.
If it works, I fully support ADA, if not, I'll say so as well.
The ironic thing is, many of these companies want me to support their entire product line, even if they do not do as claimed.
I do not do that, I will support what works and then explain why it does.
If I cannot repeat their so called results, they are welcomed to discuss it with me and see what can be done.
To date only one company has done so, SeaChem labs. Tropica a little bit.
I fully support them both. I alos support ADA, but the tanks, the glass ware, aqua soils, you can us ethe other stuff, it will not hurt, most psuedo science items ever will.........except your wallet.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Does not matter who the person is, they often over look things.
I try to be right about most things and sometime flip flop as I learn more myself.
If so, I'm honest with myself and other folks about it.
That type of behavior should be encouraged. Question everything, prove it to yourself honestly and try to be open and see if holds water.
I had no issues questioning the top folks when I got on the web in the mid 1990's, they had PhD's etc. Now I'm getting me one, haha. Am I smarter now? Not really, I just did some more work than the other folks.
Same here.
Rather than buying things for peace of mind, I would rather know if the stuff has any significant impact on plant growth. So you set up several small tanks(easier to replicate, cheaper etc), and do different treatments, some with ADA AS alone, some with PS.
Some with Bacter, some with Tourmaline, some who knows what all.
I think for LFS's, PS and PS special have some use, for folks clueless and wanting the tank right away, PS might fill a need.
ADA design these items for folks who do not know what KNO3 is , or has any chem background, most web savy folks do.
They save the $$$ this way.
If you already know all that, then PS is a waste for you.
But LFS that might neglect dosing etc, then it is useful.
It's just pumic, peat, and some macros(mostly NO3).
Tourmaline is quite another matter.
This is about all that funky crystal healing bioenergy homepathy pseudo science quackry.
Penac is also sold by ADA, does not mean it works for feces.
Snake oil as far as I can tell and unless I'm proven wrong, I will attack such psuedo science quacks with barbaric savagery.
Do some googling on either product.
I think you'll see the point.
Lots of pretty fuzzy wording, no meat on the bone.
If it did do what they said it does, I can assure you the ag folks here would be using things that increase growth of plants by 50% and if it had merit, they could secure the funding and do the research to show it's has significant impacts.
But this is not about science, this about making money marketing a line of products, some of which do and don't work as claimed.
The issue is figuring out which do and don't.
Dupla claimed heating cables where the cat's meow.
I've been rentless on this one.
I've never seen anything to suggest either in the research nor in practical terms they work, so just because some company claims something, certainly does mean a hill of beans.
These same companies also make the claim that excess PO4/NO3 also cause algae, yet when I repeat this treatment to their claim, I am unable to induce algae over a very very wide range of concentrations.
Still believe everything you read?
I hope you question me and use that same prejudice to question these companies and their claims before spending your hard earned $$$.
If it works, I fully support ADA, if not, I'll say so as well.
The ironic thing is, many of these companies want me to support their entire product line, even if they do not do as claimed.
I do not do that, I will support what works and then explain why it does.
If I cannot repeat their so called results, they are welcomed to discuss it with me and see what can be done.
To date only one company has done so, SeaChem labs. Tropica a little bit.
I fully support them both. I alos support ADA, but the tanks, the glass ware, aqua soils, you can us ethe other stuff, it will not hurt, most psuedo science items ever will.........except your wallet.
Regards,
Tom Barr
NAL
Fish Fanatic
o.k. here is my 2 pence worth...
A soil has three basic compents, a mineral one, a humic/organic one, and a bacterial one, irrespecitve of whether it is in an aquatic environment or sub-aerial. To me this is where Powersand special comes in. Notwithstanding the efficacy of bacterial starters, in the case of ADA, Bacter 100, the additional component is Clear Super, a fine-grained activated carbon additive, with some other additives, but at it's core is pumice and peat. The pumice is highly porous volcanic rock and hence provides an excellent additional basis for bacterial colonization within the substrate, which I believe is fundamental to establishing a healthy planted tank. The organic component probably, as Tom describes, provides an initial boost of N. Personally I can tell you that I find no detectable evidence of a release of ammonia as a consequence of using PS. Similarly, I find no evidence of a boost to phosphate in the inital period. As for Tourmaline BC, I don't think this is any mystery meat either. Tourmaline is a mineral which contains a variety of elements, including aluminium, boron, lithium etc. All it is is a substrate additive that may provide a long term supply of additional traces as it is broken down in the base of substrate. Take it or leave it.
I would say that PS gives you a margin of error with your dosing in the inital start up period that a significant number of people do have major issues with in the first couple of weeks of a tanks life. It provides an initial flush of nutrients to the substrate as the organic component begins to oxidise and breakdown. The pumice meanwhile provides an ideal medium for starting a bacterial colony in the substrate (don't believe it-why do eheim etc make porous cermaic filter medium which mimic the structure of pumice?). Maybe the Bacter 100 kicks it off. Will a layer of peat and pumic with a splash of mum or old filter juice do the same job? Probably. Is using one or the other method a good idea when setting up a new tank? Yes, I'd say so. As for the plocher stuff, penac-whatever it is called, I see no mention of it in the current ADA catalogue, and I don't consider it an integral part of the substrate system. I'd agree, sounds pretty hokey. I'll tell you one thing though- no-one to my knowledge has gotten steamed-up enough to work out for sure what is in any of this stuff by quantitatively analysising it's chemistry-when someone dissolves the powersand in acid and runs it through an ICP-mass spec then we'll know for sure ( I think people on APC have been promising to do this to Amano's stuff for a long time....). Sames goes for Tourmaline BC and the rest of it.
My personal experience is this. 2 1/2 weeks ago I set-up my Rio 125 with the above. I'm using a large Eheim external that I've been running in for 4 or so months (I actaully think using a mature filter also plays a massive role in ensuring the stability of a new system). The tank is heaviliy planted, but with a lot of what you might call slow growers-mostly Crypts. So heavy substrate feeders are the order of the day. George and Neil rightly said they had some concerns about the ability of these plants to fend off algae and all in the initial period. I also had some serious reservations over whether I could get this thing to look good for more than a day after set-up. I can tell you that I've been dosing traces and K daily, with P when required. No additional N (t/w around here is 30 ppm nitrate). I've had only the slightest bit of algae build-up after going on 3 weeks. Normally my experience is the brown gunge comes a matter of days after set-up. I've just seen a little on some of volcanic rocks in the hardscape. Basically I'm surprised at how apparently stable the system is so early on, with so few fast growers to soak up any excess nutrients either leaching from the PS or from unused water column additions (KH/pH is something else, but that is another thread...). I've got a stack more AS and PS-Special and I'm going to use it! I would say, don't knock it until you've tried it. If desire or necessity dicates then make some DIY powersand. I just used one small bag of the stuff in my Rio 125, and I don't think it is prohibitve, the rest was 2 18L bags of AS Malaya. Nice!!
Nick
A soil has three basic compents, a mineral one, a humic/organic one, and a bacterial one, irrespecitve of whether it is in an aquatic environment or sub-aerial. To me this is where Powersand special comes in. Notwithstanding the efficacy of bacterial starters, in the case of ADA, Bacter 100, the additional component is Clear Super, a fine-grained activated carbon additive, with some other additives, but at it's core is pumice and peat. The pumice is highly porous volcanic rock and hence provides an excellent additional basis for bacterial colonization within the substrate, which I believe is fundamental to establishing a healthy planted tank. The organic component probably, as Tom describes, provides an initial boost of N. Personally I can tell you that I find no detectable evidence of a release of ammonia as a consequence of using PS. Similarly, I find no evidence of a boost to phosphate in the inital period. As for Tourmaline BC, I don't think this is any mystery meat either. Tourmaline is a mineral which contains a variety of elements, including aluminium, boron, lithium etc. All it is is a substrate additive that may provide a long term supply of additional traces as it is broken down in the base of substrate. Take it or leave it.
I would say that PS gives you a margin of error with your dosing in the inital start up period that a significant number of people do have major issues with in the first couple of weeks of a tanks life. It provides an initial flush of nutrients to the substrate as the organic component begins to oxidise and breakdown. The pumice meanwhile provides an ideal medium for starting a bacterial colony in the substrate (don't believe it-why do eheim etc make porous cermaic filter medium which mimic the structure of pumice?). Maybe the Bacter 100 kicks it off. Will a layer of peat and pumic with a splash of mum or old filter juice do the same job? Probably. Is using one or the other method a good idea when setting up a new tank? Yes, I'd say so. As for the plocher stuff, penac-whatever it is called, I see no mention of it in the current ADA catalogue, and I don't consider it an integral part of the substrate system. I'd agree, sounds pretty hokey. I'll tell you one thing though- no-one to my knowledge has gotten steamed-up enough to work out for sure what is in any of this stuff by quantitatively analysising it's chemistry-when someone dissolves the powersand in acid and runs it through an ICP-mass spec then we'll know for sure ( I think people on APC have been promising to do this to Amano's stuff for a long time....). Sames goes for Tourmaline BC and the rest of it.
My personal experience is this. 2 1/2 weeks ago I set-up my Rio 125 with the above. I'm using a large Eheim external that I've been running in for 4 or so months (I actaully think using a mature filter also plays a massive role in ensuring the stability of a new system). The tank is heaviliy planted, but with a lot of what you might call slow growers-mostly Crypts. So heavy substrate feeders are the order of the day. George and Neil rightly said they had some concerns about the ability of these plants to fend off algae and all in the initial period. I also had some serious reservations over whether I could get this thing to look good for more than a day after set-up. I can tell you that I've been dosing traces and K daily, with P when required. No additional N (t/w around here is 30 ppm nitrate). I've had only the slightest bit of algae build-up after going on 3 weeks. Normally my experience is the brown gunge comes a matter of days after set-up. I've just seen a little on some of volcanic rocks in the hardscape. Basically I'm surprised at how apparently stable the system is so early on, with so few fast growers to soak up any excess nutrients either leaching from the PS or from unused water column additions (KH/pH is something else, but that is another thread...). I've got a stack more AS and PS-Special and I'm going to use it! I would say, don't knock it until you've tried it. If desire or necessity dicates then make some DIY powersand. I just used one small bag of the stuff in my Rio 125, and I don't think it is prohibitve, the rest was 2 18L bags of AS Malaya. Nice!!
Nick
George Farmer
ad aqua
Thanks Tom and Nick. Food for thought certainly.
From what I understand from this discussion then basically AS, PS + additives may be useful for those that intend using the ADA liquid fert range too. 100% AS for EI users.
Nick - I'm particularly interested with your success with slower plants in your new layout, I wonder how much the substrate contributed to this or is it mainly the matured filter?
From what I understand from this discussion then basically AS, PS + additives may be useful for those that intend using the ADA liquid fert range too. 100% AS for EI users.
Nick - I'm particularly interested with your success with slower plants in your new layout, I wonder how much the substrate contributed to this or is it mainly the matured filter?
oldwhitewood
Fishaholic
Remember too I recently broke my tank down completely in order to add my sand foreground. After it had filled back up and replanted and the filter was back in place I experienced no or very little algae issues at all. I mean the filter is well matured and there's more shrimp in the setup than one can wave a stick at, but it's still interesting. When I first setup the tank it was a nightmare, algae city basically.
Nick and Tom there have taken the discussion to a higher level than I can comprehend so I will just sit back and observe!
Nick and Tom there have taken the discussion to a higher level than I can comprehend so I will just sit back and observe!
plantbrain
Fishaholic
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Messages
- 476
- Reaction score
- 0
Well, there should not be any algae in a nenw tank, that's just nothing but poor planning.
Does not matter what method you use.
Most do not add enough plants in the start.
If you do, they cycle the tank, actually short circuit it and pump all the O2 down into the substrate.
I've never bought the idea of better flow through the substrate, all substrate clog up with mulm fairly rapidly.
Bacter etc, well if you use mulm from another tank, a friend's, LFS's, another tank your own etc, then that add precisely what is missing from a new tank. What's the sdifference from an established tank and new tank's substrate?
Nothing except bacteria and organic matter.
What's mulm? Bacteria and organic matter.
So add that and that deals with the bacteria.
If you add the NO3, K, PO4 right away to the water column, this allows for the plants to grow right away.
This also provides lots of O2, which....bacteria use to grow and respire/oxidize.
As Nick suggest, the NO3 is in the water column, this is from the PS.
The mulm also adds a nice organic carbon source, much like us, they need some form of reduced carbon that's labile(peat is not particularly labile).
Tourmaline sand is a very non bioavailable form of trace elements. While the Boron etc are in the mineral, the bioavailablilty is critical and they are not bioavailable here.
That's like saying coral, CaCO3 is a good source of oxygen.
There's some Oxygen in there, but it's not available.
"including aluminium, boron, lithium" , what is Al used for agian in plants? Flourite has this, so does laterite, is it useful to plants? Or is it toxic under reducing conditions?
You think about that........do some searching........
Lithium? Is this an essential plant nutrient?
Boron is, but..........it's not even remotely available in this mineral.
This product is not really an aquarium product. They sell it for all sorts of things, trying to market it for other fields, even if it does not work other than to make you believe all the marketing BS. There's no merit to it and I've been unable to find anything in agriculture, aquatic, geologic, botantical research fields that shows any evidence that it does. Having used it, I see no significance differences.
They said similar BS about heating cables.
Does not mean they where even remotely right.
Dupla did market something that did work well, CO2..........and there was/is support for that, but noth for this nor the cables. Nor Penac. That stuff is a hoot and pure pseudo science marketing.
Search Tourmaline sand... google etc.
You may get my point. I have a Geology reference manager, you can bet it's not very available to the plants, and if it's so long term, what good is it?
Even if I got 5-10% more production per year, the ag folks are all over it, that means 200K$ is now another 10-20K$ profit -minus the cost. That's a lot in that field. Theyn spend $$$ for GM crops to get that much out of it.
If something takes 6-12 months to add a tiny fraction, how is that going to help significantly?
You'd never been able to show that in a test.
If you have a Boron limited system, adding boric acid to the water column vs adding this? muhahaha. I can tell you without running that test which would work better and be a much better delivery method. Anyone knowing beans about agriculture would as well. If you question an aquatic vs a terrestrial sediment: rice cropping is one I specialize in as well as weed control. Rice soils are silimiar abnd very similar in newly flooded fields, like a new tank.
Bacterial colonization is on the plants, on and in the gravel, clay has far more surface area than pumice does. Bacteria is not a larger player in a new tank because there is liittle waste to be broken down yet.
Plants remove the NH4.
You can and ADA does, add activatred carbon, you can use zeolite as well to remove the NH4 and other amino acids that are source of NH4 in new tanks as things settle in. Some do, soem don't, I';ve not found a need, I'd rather add more plants from day one than messing with these other things.
Clays also have far more CEC than pumic.
Another question: have you use these products over time?
The powersand(PS) comes up when you replant and is a royal PITA as it's this big white colored hard sand against the black soft soil, this looks ugly and tacky.
Perhaps you do not uproot(most do), but when you have layered two tone substrates, this invariably mixes and looks bad after awhile.
I'm still trying to get the pumic out of two of my tanks.
Wait, you'll see soon enough
You should not see any NH4 with PS, it's mainly NO3............which is extremely mobile and is an anion, typically is not retained in any soil, which is why we see in well water/drinking water etc.....not NH4........
So since it's so mobile, may as well add it to the water column.
KNO3 is a bit cheaper than PS................
The point is not to buy into the brochure and parrot what ADA says, rather, test this stuff, look things up to see if they are worthwhile and help the plant growth, why/why not. See if they work, see if they work individually, not all tossed together, you cannot make any sense out of that potpourri.......
Then you'll know if it does what it claims rather than speculate based of their marketing.
I don't need a mass spect to know what's in these products. The liquids ferts are easy.
Simple sediment test tell you what's in the soil.
You do not need to do a big research production to test a soil BTW, a quick test will tell you if the claims are true or not and give you a relative feel.
I don't need precise data, because of the variability between tanks/routines etc, much of that precision will be lost........
Regards,
Tom Barr
Does not matter what method you use.
Most do not add enough plants in the start.
If you do, they cycle the tank, actually short circuit it and pump all the O2 down into the substrate.
I've never bought the idea of better flow through the substrate, all substrate clog up with mulm fairly rapidly.
Bacter etc, well if you use mulm from another tank, a friend's, LFS's, another tank your own etc, then that add precisely what is missing from a new tank. What's the sdifference from an established tank and new tank's substrate?
Nothing except bacteria and organic matter.
What's mulm? Bacteria and organic matter.
So add that and that deals with the bacteria.
If you add the NO3, K, PO4 right away to the water column, this allows for the plants to grow right away.
This also provides lots of O2, which....bacteria use to grow and respire/oxidize.
As Nick suggest, the NO3 is in the water column, this is from the PS.
The mulm also adds a nice organic carbon source, much like us, they need some form of reduced carbon that's labile(peat is not particularly labile).
Tourmaline sand is a very non bioavailable form of trace elements. While the Boron etc are in the mineral, the bioavailablilty is critical and they are not bioavailable here.
That's like saying coral, CaCO3 is a good source of oxygen.
There's some Oxygen in there, but it's not available.
"including aluminium, boron, lithium" , what is Al used for agian in plants? Flourite has this, so does laterite, is it useful to plants? Or is it toxic under reducing conditions?
You think about that........do some searching........
Lithium? Is this an essential plant nutrient?
Boron is, but..........it's not even remotely available in this mineral.
This product is not really an aquarium product. They sell it for all sorts of things, trying to market it for other fields, even if it does not work other than to make you believe all the marketing BS. There's no merit to it and I've been unable to find anything in agriculture, aquatic, geologic, botantical research fields that shows any evidence that it does. Having used it, I see no significance differences.
They said similar BS about heating cables.
Does not mean they where even remotely right.
Dupla did market something that did work well, CO2..........and there was/is support for that, but noth for this nor the cables. Nor Penac. That stuff is a hoot and pure pseudo science marketing.
Search Tourmaline sand... google etc.
You may get my point. I have a Geology reference manager, you can bet it's not very available to the plants, and if it's so long term, what good is it?
Even if I got 5-10% more production per year, the ag folks are all over it, that means 200K$ is now another 10-20K$ profit -minus the cost. That's a lot in that field. Theyn spend $$$ for GM crops to get that much out of it.
If something takes 6-12 months to add a tiny fraction, how is that going to help significantly?
You'd never been able to show that in a test.
If you have a Boron limited system, adding boric acid to the water column vs adding this? muhahaha. I can tell you without running that test which would work better and be a much better delivery method. Anyone knowing beans about agriculture would as well. If you question an aquatic vs a terrestrial sediment: rice cropping is one I specialize in as well as weed control. Rice soils are silimiar abnd very similar in newly flooded fields, like a new tank.
Bacterial colonization is on the plants, on and in the gravel, clay has far more surface area than pumice does. Bacteria is not a larger player in a new tank because there is liittle waste to be broken down yet.
Plants remove the NH4.
You can and ADA does, add activatred carbon, you can use zeolite as well to remove the NH4 and other amino acids that are source of NH4 in new tanks as things settle in. Some do, soem don't, I';ve not found a need, I'd rather add more plants from day one than messing with these other things.
Clays also have far more CEC than pumic.
Another question: have you use these products over time?
The powersand(PS) comes up when you replant and is a royal PITA as it's this big white colored hard sand against the black soft soil, this looks ugly and tacky.
Perhaps you do not uproot(most do), but when you have layered two tone substrates, this invariably mixes and looks bad after awhile.
I'm still trying to get the pumic out of two of my tanks.
Wait, you'll see soon enough
You should not see any NH4 with PS, it's mainly NO3............which is extremely mobile and is an anion, typically is not retained in any soil, which is why we see in well water/drinking water etc.....not NH4........
So since it's so mobile, may as well add it to the water column.
KNO3 is a bit cheaper than PS................
The point is not to buy into the brochure and parrot what ADA says, rather, test this stuff, look things up to see if they are worthwhile and help the plant growth, why/why not. See if they work, see if they work individually, not all tossed together, you cannot make any sense out of that potpourri.......
Then you'll know if it does what it claims rather than speculate based of their marketing.
I don't need a mass spect to know what's in these products. The liquids ferts are easy.
Simple sediment test tell you what's in the soil.
You do not need to do a big research production to test a soil BTW, a quick test will tell you if the claims are true or not and give you a relative feel.
I don't need precise data, because of the variability between tanks/routines etc, much of that precision will be lost........
Regards,
Tom Barr
George Farmer
ad aqua
Unfortunately not all of us have the budget, time etc. to be able to test the products. We have to rely on guys like you, and I for one am thankful that you pass on your experiences, hopefully to our benefit. It does get a little confusing though, with guys like Jeff Senke and many other well-respected members of the international planted community using the ADA product range with great success. Would they have the same levels of success using pure AS and EI? I certainly hope so as this is what I plan. I expect users like the entire ADA range for its user-friendliness, funky packaging etc. I have to admit that I am very impressed by ADA's glassware; lily pipes, diffusers etc. but that's another issue.
Tom - do you recommend adding peat in addition to the mulm? How much peat are we talking and is there any particular variety or brand you recommend?
craynerd
Fish Addict
I seem to have started an interesting debate.
Tom, for my own sake could i please try and re-word what you have just said, just to confirm that i understand.
Your point is that many of these products like tourmaline contain a lot of trace elements; however, they are not very bioavailable. I presume bioavailability is the same in plants as it is in medicine, being the amount of ""the substance" available to the plant. So when certain substrates and fertilizers say they contain, for example aluminium, boron, lithium, the point is that they are hardly available! Not only that, but they are not really needed and will do little for extra plant growth. In addition, you are saying that if these nutrients were the limiting factors, then more a direct dosing method would be a more appropriate routine to take (you give an example with boron and boric acid). Is that correct?
Can i also just further substantiate George’s point he made above. The whole point of this original post was to see if I should use PS or tourmaline when I setup fresh again in a few weeks. Of course, in an ideal world I need not have posted, just gone out bought some small tanks and setup a test. Unfortunately, I just can’t do that, that’s where everyone else’s experience comes in, and these forums prove useful! I am sure everyone appreciates the effort you guys all make to contributing and sharing your thoughts and advice.
This thread has been a fantastic read!
Regards
Chris
Tom, for my own sake could i please try and re-word what you have just said, just to confirm that i understand.
Your point is that many of these products like tourmaline contain a lot of trace elements; however, they are not very bioavailable. I presume bioavailability is the same in plants as it is in medicine, being the amount of ""the substance" available to the plant. So when certain substrates and fertilizers say they contain, for example aluminium, boron, lithium, the point is that they are hardly available! Not only that, but they are not really needed and will do little for extra plant growth. In addition, you are saying that if these nutrients were the limiting factors, then more a direct dosing method would be a more appropriate routine to take (you give an example with boron and boric acid). Is that correct?
Can i also just further substantiate George’s point he made above. The whole point of this original post was to see if I should use PS or tourmaline when I setup fresh again in a few weeks. Of course, in an ideal world I need not have posted, just gone out bought some small tanks and setup a test. Unfortunately, I just can’t do that, that’s where everyone else’s experience comes in, and these forums prove useful! I am sure everyone appreciates the effort you guys all make to contributing and sharing your thoughts and advice.
This thread has been a fantastic read!
Regards
Chris
NAL
Fish Fanatic
Tom raises some very interesting issues here. I agree very much that most people don’t add anywhere near as enough plants at the beginning, and this makes for a bad start no matter what you system your using.
Mulm, bacter 100, old filters…it all points to one thing-get the bacteria in there doing their job and that will help the tank to stabilise. My personal view is that the quicker you can establish stable conditions (stable CO2, stable light period, stable dosing regime, stable bacterial colony) the better chance you have of getting the tank right from the off. Undeniably a lot of folk have start up issues, which may seem trivial to the experts, but can be a real source of frustration. I don’t think any one is suggesting per se that ADA substrates etc provide the magic bullet, but a lot us are finding that for whatever reason they are better than what we were using before (and while some us haven’t used them all, we’ve used a good number of different plant substrates). May be that says more about us than the products. If that’s the case, I don’t care. I end up with a decent tank all the same.
The pumice component of Powersand is an excellent substrate for a bacterial colony, by virtue of it’s porosity and hence greater surface area per unit volume. Hence why, as I say, Eheim et al set out to mimic this structure in their filter media. I wouldn’t expect pumice to have any significant CEC at all to be honest, so this isn’t an issue with PS (the AS looks after CEC, so that’ll look after binding important plant nutrients). Since by far and away the majority of bacteria live attached to surfaces, the substrate being a critical place for bacterial colonization in the planted tank, increasing the available living space, for want of a better word, isn’t going to do any harm, hence Powersand. I would bet getting hold of a small volume of ground pumice over here would be more costly and more effort than spending £9 or whatever on a 2 L bag of Powersand Special. Hence, why I use the PS (and of course it is part of trying the ‘system’).
As for Tourmaline BC, I don’t think it’ll make or break a tank, and I’ll skip the Google geology lesson thanks-I don’t need it. As for the rate at which it breaks down, you may well have a point. Tourmaline as a mineral is highly resistant to chemical and physical weathering-it isn’t falling into the labile category geologically, and one might indeed question how readily available the constituent elements could become as a trace supply to the plants. This impacts Chris’ question about bioavailability-at a basic level you have to start breaking down the molecular structure of that mineral to enable the plants to use it. I’m using it because I’m curious about how the system, as described and as a whole, works. Simple. I don’t have the time or the space to run more than about 2 plant tanks and so I don’t have the luxury of being able to run comparative experiments between set-up.
As for uprooting-I’ve taken people’s recent experience on board-those that use PS-and piled it in the back, and probably used ½ that which ‘heavy’ users have done so before. And, for the record, I’ve plenty of experience with two layered substrate systems and the problems associated with mixing the two.
Now to answer Chris’ question, if it were me, I’d plump for Aquasoil and Powersand Special, may be skip the T-BC (mind you, if it has sold out sounds like there are a lot of gullible folk out there eh Tom?). These are the two aspect of the system that make it what it is in my opinion. End of the day, the substrate system, particularly the Powersand Special, in my view gives you a little wiggle room early on and I think provides something of a foundation to create a stable system more rapidly, more quickly. Yes it is easy to dump KNO3 into the water etc…I’ve got a set-up with a lot of heavy root feeders, slow growers to boot, and right now I’m running the tank pretty lean on additional N and P. Thus far it is giving me what I started out for, a relatively trouble-free low maintenance aquascape that should mature over the long term without the need for too much pruning, re-planting and all. Can’t say fairer than that?
Regards,
Nick
p.s. I'm even doing Greengain at the water change!!
George,
Good question about filter maturity. I had some early issues with some of the Crypts (still not got the all the photos ready for the web) but things appear to have settled down on that front now. I really don't know the answer at this stage. I think carrying the mature filter over is a good idea for some of the reasons outlined above. It also allows you to get the livestock in there early without too many NTS issues. As you said, there could have been issues early on (still may be...) because the tank is dominantly slow growers, and I wanted to get a load of shrimp in as soon as I could to combat any early algae. I think I've got 35 or so in the tank now, along with the Otos, and no real algae.
I will be getting another filter as soon as I can and hooking it into this tank in an effort to get it mature before the new tank goes in.
Nick
Mulm, bacter 100, old filters…it all points to one thing-get the bacteria in there doing their job and that will help the tank to stabilise. My personal view is that the quicker you can establish stable conditions (stable CO2, stable light period, stable dosing regime, stable bacterial colony) the better chance you have of getting the tank right from the off. Undeniably a lot of folk have start up issues, which may seem trivial to the experts, but can be a real source of frustration. I don’t think any one is suggesting per se that ADA substrates etc provide the magic bullet, but a lot us are finding that for whatever reason they are better than what we were using before (and while some us haven’t used them all, we’ve used a good number of different plant substrates). May be that says more about us than the products. If that’s the case, I don’t care. I end up with a decent tank all the same.
The pumice component of Powersand is an excellent substrate for a bacterial colony, by virtue of it’s porosity and hence greater surface area per unit volume. Hence why, as I say, Eheim et al set out to mimic this structure in their filter media. I wouldn’t expect pumice to have any significant CEC at all to be honest, so this isn’t an issue with PS (the AS looks after CEC, so that’ll look after binding important plant nutrients). Since by far and away the majority of bacteria live attached to surfaces, the substrate being a critical place for bacterial colonization in the planted tank, increasing the available living space, for want of a better word, isn’t going to do any harm, hence Powersand. I would bet getting hold of a small volume of ground pumice over here would be more costly and more effort than spending £9 or whatever on a 2 L bag of Powersand Special. Hence, why I use the PS (and of course it is part of trying the ‘system’).
As for Tourmaline BC, I don’t think it’ll make or break a tank, and I’ll skip the Google geology lesson thanks-I don’t need it. As for the rate at which it breaks down, you may well have a point. Tourmaline as a mineral is highly resistant to chemical and physical weathering-it isn’t falling into the labile category geologically, and one might indeed question how readily available the constituent elements could become as a trace supply to the plants. This impacts Chris’ question about bioavailability-at a basic level you have to start breaking down the molecular structure of that mineral to enable the plants to use it. I’m using it because I’m curious about how the system, as described and as a whole, works. Simple. I don’t have the time or the space to run more than about 2 plant tanks and so I don’t have the luxury of being able to run comparative experiments between set-up.
As for uprooting-I’ve taken people’s recent experience on board-those that use PS-and piled it in the back, and probably used ½ that which ‘heavy’ users have done so before. And, for the record, I’ve plenty of experience with two layered substrate systems and the problems associated with mixing the two.
Now to answer Chris’ question, if it were me, I’d plump for Aquasoil and Powersand Special, may be skip the T-BC (mind you, if it has sold out sounds like there are a lot of gullible folk out there eh Tom?). These are the two aspect of the system that make it what it is in my opinion. End of the day, the substrate system, particularly the Powersand Special, in my view gives you a little wiggle room early on and I think provides something of a foundation to create a stable system more rapidly, more quickly. Yes it is easy to dump KNO3 into the water etc…I’ve got a set-up with a lot of heavy root feeders, slow growers to boot, and right now I’m running the tank pretty lean on additional N and P. Thus far it is giving me what I started out for, a relatively trouble-free low maintenance aquascape that should mature over the long term without the need for too much pruning, re-planting and all. Can’t say fairer than that?
Regards,
Nick
p.s. I'm even doing Greengain at the water change!!
George,
Good question about filter maturity. I had some early issues with some of the Crypts (still not got the all the photos ready for the web) but things appear to have settled down on that front now. I really don't know the answer at this stage. I think carrying the mature filter over is a good idea for some of the reasons outlined above. It also allows you to get the livestock in there early without too many NTS issues. As you said, there could have been issues early on (still may be...) because the tank is dominantly slow growers, and I wanted to get a load of shrimp in as soon as I could to combat any early algae. I think I've got 35 or so in the tank now, along with the Otos, and no real algae.
I will be getting another filter as soon as I can and hooking it into this tank in an effort to get it mature before the new tank goes in.
Nick
Themuleous
Fish Connoisseur
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I wont profess to all of this thread, but it certainly is interesting
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