Above tank sump

[agusf]

Hi all

I have been thinking about installing a sump in a cabinet above my 36 gal (136 liter) tank. The surface it rests upon makes it virtually impossible to install a sump below but above is not at all impossible albeit with some mods. The tank currently runs a fluval 206 canister filter, where the pump is in the canister hood.

I dont really mean a true sump as in making my own filter but rather placing the canister filter above the tank in the cabinet, then having its outlet feed to a small 5 gal tank where I can install a UV filter, a heater, maybe an air pump & diffuser, or a co2 " ", to keep all that out of the tank and not crowding it.

I know before even implementing all this that it will be crucial to match the outgoing and ingoing flow rate. I figure if I get an adjustable flow rate pump and match it to the fluval 206 rate, then that won't be an issue. Here's where I have a main concern or question for the forum; I'm wondering if instead of a return pump, I can just create a gravity pump for the return and, using some sort of valve in the return line I can limit the return flow. I'm also wondering if the outgoing line (from tank -> filter / > sump) will even work or work at a decreased flow rate since the pump, in the canister hood, would be at a higher elevation than the tank.
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Finally I'm thinking of getting a second filter and have it run simultaneously, so that I can both increase filtration and have a back up of the first or either fails, so I don't lose my filter cycle / bacteria colonies. I was thinking of getting something that could be easily transferred back to the main tank since or if I count on my canister filter on being the pump itself for the sump, so like a HOB filter, and I wasnt necessarily thinking on getting one that meets the capacity of the tank since it would only be a back up and I would move quickly to repair or replace the main in case of failure, like a quietflow 20. However, I came across a friend offering me a cobalt e-x-t canister filter for super low which he hasn't used, for a very reasonable price. This would likely be the only other canister filter that would work with this setup since the actual pump for this canister is not in the hood but connects to the lines, so I could just buy another pump with adjustable flow rate and match it to the fluval 206 rate. Now the investment for the second canister filter would not be much since its my buddy selling it to me but it would likely be reduntant if the first canister feeds into a 5 gal tank which the second intakes from, right?

All advice and insight is appreciated.

 

[itiwhetu]

The only way I feel to make this work is to cut a hole near the top of the sump and attach an overflow pipe that runs down into the tank. Then you can ignore flow rates. The problem with this system is that rates are always changing due to blockages etc.

 

[agusf]

Hmm I see, sounds like that is the way to go. Unrelated to the return flow, Do you know if the fluval 206 filter being positioned above the tank will be an issue with the outgoing, upward flowing flow rate or flow altogether? the pump is in the canister hood.

 

[seangee]

Would it not be easier to get something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003ZGGH08/?tag= I linked to that brand because I ran one continuously for over 15 years with no issues. There are cheaper but I can't personally vouch for them.
For a tropical tank UV is unneccessary and won't provide any benefit. I have chosen not to inject CO2 in any of my tanks and my filter backup is plants. By all accounts every one of my tanks is significantly underfiltered because I use plants to deal with the ammonia. This means that I don't have nitrate being produced in the filter and I am really not concerned about heater failure.

 

[agusf]

Would it not be easier to get something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003ZGGH08/?tag= I linked to that brand because I ran one continuously for over 15 years with no issues. There are cheaper but I can't personally vouch for them.

Hmm well that does look like it could be very convenient for certain predicaments... In my situation, at least right now I don't think it will be significantly more convenient, not enough to invest in one of those when I already have a typical in tank heater and am trying to minimize spending in this already expensive hobby haha. But good to know that these exist, for future reference.

For a tropical tank UV is unneccessary and won't provide any benefit. I have chosen not to inject CO2 in any of my tanks and my filter backup is plants. By all accounts every one of my tanks is significantly underfiltered because I use plants to deal with the ammonia. This means that I don't have nitrate being produced in the filter and I am really not concerned about heater failure.

Really? the primary reason I was so compelled to get UV filtration was because I was learning, from videos and other online content, that planted tanks are much more susceptible to algae due to higher CO2 levels or injections.

So your backup, and from what I gather primary filter are plants? interesting to know. To your experience and knowledge do the two (traditional filtration and plants) ever work against each other like if you have too much filtration you starve your plants of nutrients? I always figured it was only synergistic as the plants came in after the nitrogen cycle to consume nitrate, I didn't know they dealt with ammonia at all.

 

[Stan510]

I might be doing that in the future. The drawback is,I would need two large pumps..one for the filter and the other to make a good flow in the big aquarium. Right now,I have a home made inside filter...takes up about 20" x 10" of the corner behind the fake epoxy or plastic rock wall. For me and the Rainbow fish,no big deal...but as I add more fish and they grow, I thought of doing that.
I don't think there are any really good how to's on youtube for them. I worry something clogged would flood the room. With my inside filter...I never have to worry about that or pump failures or sump cracks or badly sealed fittings.

 

[mbsqw1d]

plants 'prefer' ammonia as source of nitrogen. They can utilise nitrate however plants actually have to work to assimilate the nitrate back to ammonia (via nitrite) before it can be used. Plants are the best filters in an aquarium. I don't understand the argument for UV with regards to algae? Perhaps in a saltwater tank? I'm not sure, never done saltwater.
Algae is always present in our tanks, heavily planted or otherwise. Algae breaks out and becomes a problem when it is provided with the conditions for which it can take advantage of. Algae is quicker to adapt to change than plants. Therefore if resources are inconsistent, which happens a lot with co2 injection, then algae will flourish. If the balance between light/co2/nutrients is out, again algae will take advantage. A lot of the time, in low tech tanks, people have bright LED lights which end up being too bright. Both seangee and myself use good LED lights that we have dimmed to 50% or more, this is primarily to avoid algae issues but also because most fish don't actually appreciate bright lighting.
What is it that you have read/seen about UV 'filtration' for planted tanks?

 

[seangee]

Really? the primary reason I was so compelled to get UV filtration was because I was learning, from videos and other online content, that planted tanks are much more susceptible to algae due to higher CO2 levels or injections.

UV Filters only work with unicellular floating green algae. It does not touch other types of algae. Since it kills the single celled algae it actually leaves more nutrients in the form of dead organic material. Having a lot of plants is a very effective way of dealing with algae because they compete for light and nutrients. Plants need an optimum balance of light, CO2 and nutrients to thrive. If you achieve this balance you will have almost no algae and none visible.

Algae is less fussy in its requirements. So a deficiency or surplus of any of those 3 things will favour the growth of algae. Add CO2 and you need more light and fertilisation. The sources that you read about planted tanks refer to aquarium gardens where the plants are the primary focus and the enviroment is not neccessarily healthy for fish. These tanks are a lot of work and often require weekly (or more often) trimming.

So your backup, and from what I gather primary filter are plants? interesting to know. To your experience and knowledge do the two (traditional filtration and plants) ever work against each other like if you have too much filtration you starve your plants of nutrients? I always figured it was only synergistic as the plants came in after the nitrogen cycle to consume nitrate, I didn't know they dealt with ammonia at all.

Plants require nitrogen. The easiest source of this is in the form of ammonia. To use nitrates plants first have to turn it back into ammonia which requires energy. Its similar to the reason mammals will use sugar or carbohydrates as the source of energy in preference to using stored fat. The nitrogen cycle means that bacteria turn ammonia into nitrites. Different bacteria then turn the nitrites into nitrates. Then the fish keeper has to remove the nitrates as part of the water change routine. When plants use ammonia they do not produce nitrites or nitrates.

Too much filtration means not enough nitrogen for plants and if you want good plant growth you need to supplement this. Too many plants and your bacteria population may reduce as there is not enough food for them. However there will be some bacteria and as long as the tank has been running a while the levels will rise very quickly if you remove the plants, but there is no risk if your filter fails.

This thread has recent pics and descriptions of my 4 tanks. Note that these tanks are not what is meant by planted tanks. They are simply fish tanks that have plants in them. When I say I clean the glass I lterally mean I wipe it with a sponge every 4-6 weeks.

 

[agusf]

OK well I've been learning a lot since re-entering the hobby - its clear to me why I retreated to fake plants in my first large tank 10 years ago LOL - I was not prepared for the added level of complexity. For now, I'm going to continue with my approach of filtering over capacity as I set up the tank, also considering I don't really have plants and don't plan on putting them in until later; and even then only about as many as are in @seangee 's aquarium in his photo within his signature. I can always decrease filter capacity from there or later...

So for a true planted tank, would cycling be a different ordeal? i.e. from the very start you put plants in and keep it running until ammonia/nitrite/nitrate(perhaps artificially added as ammonia hydroxide instead of fish waste) reach low levels - low enough to introduce fish - whereby a good balance has been established in between the nitrogen reduction potential of the plants and the beneficial bacteria? I take it.

I did buy a UV filter before doing more proper reading on it as it was on sale second hand for nearly 80% off or upwards of that - I have a pretty clear picture over the whole debate of it and the more commercialized UV clarifiers which are not true UV sterilizers as advertised and the difference between UVA light and UVC, and whether a small UV lamp can even reach the output needed to truly be effective, in addition to all the distinctions between free floating unicellular pathogens vs those that grow on surfaces primarily, and finally the redox potential of the water and how UV can improve it for fish. So it seems like it can be beneficial when the UV equipment is strong enough and the effect is less so directly in eliminating all pathogens as what one might get the impression of. Anyways I'll run it now in my tank so that as I'm setting it up it will keep algae introduction possibilities at a lower risk. The UV equipment I got was not the lowest end of the range in terms of strength but definitely still quite weak compared to the stuff I read about that was 'level 1 capable'. I have the following equipment: https://www.aquatop.com/products/internal-filter-w-uv-sterilization-sp9uv-9w-264gph

 

[agusf]

AS for the above tank sump, I will still set it up, I will use the method indicated by itiwhetu for the return flow, and looks like I'll have to be buying one of the aqueon 5 gallon standard rectangular tanks and modifying it for my sump purposes. I've searched quite a bit around and there doesn't seem to be a place that sells rectangular tanks, whether acrylic or glass, of the right dimensions I need for a decent price (<$50), really anywhere. even for the aqueon 5 gal tank I'm thinking I'd modify it so the top was not the original intended top but rather one of the smaller sides, such that it is a tall, thin tank. I'd have to bust the glass on one of the sides, remove the pieces, and then seal the glass lid that would go on the original 'top' side to that side.

 

[Essjay]

So for a true planted tank, would cycling be a different ordeal?

Yes it is different. It is called a plant or silent cycle. The theory behind it is that plants take up ammonia and do not turn it into nitrite. No ammonia is added to the tank.

For a silent cycle, the tank should be well planted with fast growing or floating plants; one or two slow growing plants will not work. Once the plants show signs that they are actively growing, the first few fish are put in the tank - monitoring ammonia and nitrite daily just in case. Once it is clear that there is no ammonia/nitrite the next batch of fish are added. The plants will continue to grow, increasing their ammonia uptake capability and by the time the tank is fully stocked, the plants have grown enough to remove all the ammonia made by the fish.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Do you really think you need additional filtration? If your water is relatively clear, extra filtration does nothing as filters only make water look clearer, but not any cleaner (see The Dirty Truth About Filters). Thinking of all those large fishrooms that run on air driven sponge filters.
Also, Since the extent of beneficial bacteria is relative to food and oxygen, adding more bio-media is pointless.
And, if I read your post right, the canister must be below the tank in order to move water properly.

 

[itiwhetu]

Yes it is different. It is called a plant or silent cycle. The theory behind it is that plants take up ammonia and do not turn it into nitrite. No ammonia is added to the tank.

For a silent cycle, the tank should be well planted with fast growing or floating plants; one or two slow growing plants will not work. Once the plants show signs that they are actively growing, the first few fish are put in the tank - monitoring ammonia and nitrite daily just in case. Once it is clear that there is no ammonia/nitrite the next batch of fish are added. The plants will continue to grow, increasing their ammonia uptake capability and by the time the tank is fully stocked, the plants have grown enough to remove all the ammonia made by the fish.

This is the method I use.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Sorry that I skipped the posts by others.

One alternative filter is the Top filter which is quite similar to hang on filter:

https://www.amazon.in/dp/B00U01NHF4/?tag=