A Number Of Beginner Questions/problems...

[msing]

Hi everybody, I'm so glad I found a nice big fish forum.

Ok so here's my background: I've had a couple shubunkin goldfish for about a year and a half now. They started out in my 50 gallon "pond" but I brought them in for the winter and decided to keep them inside (too much work moving them around safely). Anyway, they are both fine, although one seems to have given itself cataracts by swimming up against the glass of their 10 gallon tank too much. This one can't see the food too well, so I've built a little system that funnels the sinking pellets (to which I switched for this purpose) down a tube to a little "table", so that the food will always be in one place and the blind fish doesn't have to search for it. However the other shubunkin is still getting all the food, because by the time the blind one smells it and investigates, it's been eaten already. So I'm setting up a new 15 gallon to separate them, at least temporarily, while the blind one gets a few good meals.

Anyway that's all mostly beside the point, but I thought worth mentioning (since this is my first post). So about three months ago I bought and set up a 75 gallon freshwater system. It's got a Marineland Biowheel "Emperor 400" on-the-back filter, and a second Marineland RiteSize "S" canister filter (with which I'm quite satisfied). This tank has several real plants, with a regular "color-enhancing" hood-light, and a plant-specific hood-light, both on a 12 hour timer. The tank currently has to stick catfish algae-eaters, a black/white striped loach (don't know the real name), a gold barb, a longfin tinfoil barb, a relatively older tiger barb (who has a bit of a sore on his nose), and a salt and pepper cory. Water pH is generally ~ 8.2-8.3, kH is ~ 7-9, and I haven't seen any ammonia or nitrites in a long time.

Unfortunately, within the past week I had a different cory die. This was a big surprise, as all the fish seemed fairly active and content. The biggest thing I can think of as far as behavioral oddities was lethargism, but since it's a bottom dweller I didn't think too much of it. So I thought maybe the bottom dwellers weren't getting enough nutrition, since I was only feeding the whole tank tropical fish flakes, and really, the barbs would suck up most of it. So I started mixing in sinking pellets and a bit of frozen shrimp blocks every few days. But the I had a zebra loach die as well. He would always hide in the corner behind my [unused as of yet] homemade CO2 injection system tube. I was kind of wondering if he had a hard time getting out of there and just starved because of being able to swin back there, but not swim back out. However, again, he had seemed lethargic even when he was out, which wasn't often. I'm also now noticing that my remaining cory seems in pretty poor spirits and looks a bit ragged. And he does this weird thing where occasionally he'll shoot up tot he surface, apparently grabbing a couple bubbles of air and then coming back down to rest on the floor. Also my remaining loach looks alright, but seems a bit frantic.

Anyway tonight I realized that early on, before I had added many fish, I had treated the water with aquarium salt. I had originally thought that maybe the hardness of the water or something like that was accounting for the poor looks/spirits of the scaleless fish, but it always seemed to be in an acceptable range. But I did some research and found out that these scaleless fish, like loaches, and catfish, corys in particular, are very sensitive to salt. So I did a 10 gallon water change (the tank usually keeps around 65 gallons in it) tonight, a bit out of schedule, and plan to continue with them daily to try to work out all the aquarium salt. However I have a sneaking suspicion that the salt is not the only cause of their unhappiness, since I've done a number of water changes since adding the salt. So any insights with respect to that are greatly appreciated.

That's really my biggest concern. But I am new to this and have a few more general questions. So let's see here...

- Is there a way to test for salt in the water?
- What do you think is the ideal temperature for my current tank? It's generally ~ 78-81 degrees F.
- Do any of my fish need shoalmates? I didn't really take sociality into account when I first got most of the fish. I don't really want a bunch of the same fish, but I'd definately go for a few, or several, if that's going to make them happy.
- I absolutely love loaches, they've stolen my heart with their little whiskers and combination of playfulness and hiding habits. I'd like to get one or more clown loaches, and maybe a couple of other kinds of loach. Any suggestions or warnings there?
- As I said earlier my tiger barb (who is surprisingly docile for a tiger) has a growing sore on his nose. I've treated the tank with "Quick-cure" for about 5 days, as previously recommended by my LFS for other ailments, although I don't know if it's the thing for this. I'm wondering if a small hospital tank with "dips" in salted or otherwise medicine-treated water are in order.
- I know I've got more questions and I'm sure I'll think of them after I've gone to sleep tonight, but I'll leave it at that for now, since I've already typed up a short essay. So any responses at all are greatly appreciated by me and my pets! They would love to feel better because of your knowledge, so thanks in advance.

== Matt

 

[rabbut]

Salt should not be used with scaleless fish, as your research has found. Yor waterchanges will soon get rid of it though. You can test for salt using a hydrometer, but TBH I don't see the point in testing for salt if you aren't adding it any more. The temp range of your tank is fine, but it is a good idea to try to keep it stable. Fluctuating temps could indicate that the heater is on its way out. Your barbs and loches are shoal mates, but I woulden't add any more fish untill you have your problems sorted. The 75 gal should be fine for clown loach, but remember that they can get to 12inches, though 8 is more common. They also require groups of 6 or more. It would probibly be internal bactiria that is caursing your deaths and lethargy. Where are you based? Meds are only available in some areas, so we need to know where you are to make a recomendation.

I noticed that you have moved you shubumpkins indoors, to a 10 gal tank. Is this a permanant arangement? Presumable you know that they could reach 2 foot i lenght, though 1 foot is more common, and about 50gal would be the minimum recomended for the pair as adults. I love shububmpkins, I think they are stunning fish, shame I don't have my pond any more. They should be able to winter in your pond, so long as it is over 4 foot deep

HTH
Rabbut

 

[onlinebug]

Water pH is generally ~ 8.2-8.3, kH is ~ 7-9, and I haven't seen any ammonia or nitrites in a long time.

Welcome to the forum Matt !!

First of all, you may want to considder lowering the PH as the ideal range for your tiger barbs are 6.0-7.0 which may be causing them and other fish in your aquarium some discomfort. Adding the salt to the aquarium with some of the fish you have stocked with wasent such a good idea, and you really should do research if you are going to add anything into your aquarium if you are not 100% sure it is safe with all the fish in there. If you have any questions about anything then please ask anyone on the forum.

Lew.

 

[rabbut]

First of all, you may want to considder lowering the PH as the ideal range for your tiger barbs are 6.0-7.0 which may be causing them and other fish in your aquarium some discomfort.

Sorry Lew, but I'm going to have to dissagree there. Avoid touching the pH if you can help it, as using chemical to alter it will caurse large swings that are hard on the fish. Almost all fish can cope with a stable pH outside their ideal range, but don't do as well with one that fluctuates. Tigers are hardy fish, and won't mind the high pH one bit.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[onlinebug]

First of all, you may want to considder lowering the PH as the ideal range for your tiger barbs are 6.0-7.0 which may be causing them and other fish in your aquarium some discomfort.

Sorry Lew, but I'm going to have to dissagree there. Avoid touching the pH if you can help it, as using chemical to alter it will caurse large swings that are hard on the fish. Almost all fish can cope with a stable pH outside their ideal range, but don't do as well with one that fluctuates. Tigers are hardy fish, and won't mind the high pH one bit.

All the best
Rabbut

I mean by adding some wood/rock to lower the PH as it may calm the fish, everyone is entitle to there opinion.

 

[Piltdownpaul]

Dont mess around with the pH. My barbs are quite happy with a pH over 7. A lot of community fish adapt to a pH not exact to thier liking. They are most likely to "thrive" with the correct pH though. A certain fish may live quite happily in a different ph zone to normal but may not breed unless it had the correct ph. I wouldnt spend money altering the value unless it was wildy out.

 

[msing]

Salt should not be used with scaleless fish, as your research has found. Yor waterchanges will soon get rid of it though. You can test for salt using a hydrometer, but TBH I don't see the point in testing for salt if you aren't adding it any more. The temp range of your tank is fine, but it is a good idea to try to keep it stable. Fluctuating temps could indicate that the heater is on its way out. Your barbs and loches are shoal mates, but I woulden't add any more fish untill you have your problems sorted. The 75 gal should be fine for clown loach, but remember that they can get to 12inches, though 8 is more common. They also require groups of 6 or more. It would probibly be internal bactiria that is caursing your deaths and lethargy. Where are you based? Meds are only available in some areas, so we need to know where you are to make a recomendation.

I won't add any more fish until I'm sure things are stable, but really, things aren't that unstable. I mean my levels and temps have never been way off, and the salt is really the only thing I can think to attribute my problems to. So I guess I just don't know when to call it "sorted". I'm in Central Illinois, USA, city of Champaign, home of the University of Illinois, to be exact.

I didn't realize clown loaches got that big. Basically all the fish at my LFS are first-years, so they're all (all the ones I've got my eye on anyway) around only an inch or two in length, making it hard to guesstimate who to put with who, and who will get how big, etc. My LFS has some really, really good knowledgeable people, but they are always so busy I can never get a hold of one. And the ones that are available all the time (walking around assisting customers) tend to be the newbies. It's pretty frustrating knowing all that juicy knowledge is hanging around (especially the owner!) but is always just out of reach. Anyway that's why I'm glad to find this community.

I would still like to have loaches though. So definitely no more salt, except maybe in my shubunkin tank. So any mroe advice on keeping loaches and scaleless fish?

I noticed that you have moved you shubumpkins indoors, to a 10 gal tank. Is this a permanant arangement? Presumable you know that they could reach 2 foot i lenght, though 1 foot is more common, and about 50gal would be the minimum recomended for the pair as adults. I love shububmpkins, I think they are stunning fish, shame I don't have my pond any more. They should be able to winter in your pond, so long as it is over 4 foot deep

Well I don't tend to upkeep the "pond" water like I should if I were to have fish in it. I put pond in quuotes, because, it's got a small waterfall I've built, but the largest part is the basin and it's only 50 gallons, and only 2-3 feet deep. So with temps around here, wintering the fish outside really isn't an option. I do plan on keeping the two inside now, though I may eventually move them to a bigger aquarium (20 gal maybe). But I haven't seen them grow much in a long time, so I wasn't really expecting them to get much bigger than they are, which is about 4-5 inches in total length. They are quite beautiful fish though. I never expected goldfish to be this beautiful, but these are definitely a great type.

If you have any questions about anything then please ask anyone on the forum.

Oh I've got more, to be sure, and there are still some unanswered ones from my original post ;]

I mean by adding some wood/rock to lower the PH as it may calm the fish...

I have been trying to lower my pH for a while, not much, just to a stable 8.0-8.2. But the tap water here is 8.4, and no matter what I try the pH always returns to around 8.3. I would definitely be up for adding some rock or wood to slowly and safely lower the pH a bit, but that is quite beyond my experience, so any more suggestions there would be great.

Thanks so much everyone, never thought I would get this much info in a single day. Much better compared to hanging around the LFS trying to steal someone good away from the more regular, known customers. Keep it coming!

 

[msing]

Did another 10 gallon water change today, making use of my gravel siphon for the first time. Turns out to work a lot better than I expected.

Also my Cory seemed much more full of vigor today, rooting through the gravel and whatnot. He still looks a bit... not so smooth, a bit pale perhaps, but then I don't have much to compare him to. At least he is acting better.

A couple more questions... my tinfoil barb has gotten really, REALLY fat lately. I'm hoping it's eggs and not some sort of sickness. It/she acts normal and active, but its body thickness is almost twice that of the gold barb, and its belly protrudes a bit more. Does this sound like eggs? I'm not looking to breed any fish, I've got my hands full as it is, plus there's no other tinfoil barbs in the tank. So what should I do with the eggs if that does turn out to be the case?

Ach, I always forget the good questions when I come to post. Oh well.

Thanks guys,

 

[rabbut]

OK, phew, where to start.....

The large tinfoil I think..Keep an eye on him/her. Given the other deaths with un-explained caurses, I am suspicious that this belly swelling may be the signs of internal bacteria. If the scales raise at any point, then you have an infection. I am unsure of what meds are available in the US, so can't realy advise much there. Best thing to do if you can is post a picture onto the board for us to look at. We will be able the help more easily then. Deffinately a case of a picture can speak a thousand words. We will also be able to check to see if it's eggs
If the lump is eggs, then they may well breed. In a community tank there will be little that you will be able to do to save the eggs, so I'd just leave them. The other fish will eat them and there is little to be done to prevent it short of ripping the decor out with the fish after they spawn.
The lone corry may be a little off, as s/he is on his/her own. Corrys prefur groups, and being alone may make them feel less secure.
It's a shame about the pond as getting a tank large enough for shubumpkins is often difficult. In a correctly maintained 20g they should still be able to reach 8 inch a pice before their growth slows. Keep good filtration, as they can be messy. The only "safe" methords of lowering the pH is to either us bog wood (need loads to make a noticable difference) or to mix in RO water (reerse osmosis). RO is expencive at outset and bogwood is only effective for a few years. Swings and roundabouts realy.

HTH
Rabbut

 

[msing]

Thanks for the additional input!

I will try to get a picture up ASAP, probably this evening. The scales on the tinfoil do look uniform, and it does stay pretty active, although it seems to have based itself back in one corner with a lot of cover. I guess I wouldn't have figured that eggs would make it get so big, and that's why I'm suspicious as well.

The cory is still doing better than it was. I'm not sure there's anything else I can do for it, besides the daily water changes I'm doing, short of getting more corys to socialize with, and that's kind of out of the question since I just don't understand enough of whats going on in my tank. The other fish seem fine however; the tiger (aside from the sore on its nose, of which I'll also get a picture), the gold barb, and the two stick cats (which just aren't an active kind of fish to my knowledge) have all acted normally since day 1. It's been strictly the loaches and corys that have been awkward. That is, until my current suspicions with the tinfoil.

Anyway thanks again for taking the time. More on this later tonight.

Oh yeah, and about the pH. So it doesn't really look like there's much of a long-term, viable solution to lowering the pH short of a tank full of RO and an empty wallet... so is a stable 8.2-8.3 going to be alright? Or is that pushing it for some of these fish, even with the stability?

 

[rabbut]

The pH you have is fine for the fish you have IMO, so there is no real need to change it. However, the pH is something to take into consideration when you next go out to buy fish.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[msing]

Ok so here's some pictures.

The longfin tinfoil barb. I really hope its eggs and not an infection or parasite:

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/09.jpg

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/10.jpg

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/04.jpg

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/05.jpg

The tiger barb, I couldn't get much of a shot, as he's pretty shy and always stays in the back of the tank, but if you look close you should be able to see a growth that's possibly infected on the left side of his nose:

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/02.jpg

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/06.jpg

And here's the cory. Like I said, he's doing a lot better, but still doesn't have that slick sheen that I'm used to seeing on a catfish:

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/01.jpg

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/03.jpg

Also here's a bad shot of my loach, he's turning in this photo, but you can see the black/white striped pattern. Any idea's on what kind of loach he is? I've looked through hundreds of pictures trying to find out:

http/www.mattseng.com/personal/images/pe..._longfin/08.jpg

Thanks,
== Matt

 

[msing]

The catfish is acting very normal now, and is starting to look better every day, he's starting to lose that "soft, pale, mushy" look and starting to look more smooth, firm, and colorful.

The tinfoil still seems as active as its always been, even with the big belly.

And although the past couple weeks have seen the tiger's nose-sore get a bit worse looking, he still acts normal. But that's probably my biggest question. I guess I'll try to get a better picture of this.

 

[Stroker]

You might also want to check this site out. It gives some pretty decent info on a lot of fish. It will tell you a lot about size, temp...
http/www.elmersaquarium.com/000tropfishcareguides.htm

 

[msing]

Thanks! Any info on the above pictures anybody?