A new disaster

[james80000]

Well,
This morning, I got up and looked at the fish. The clown loaches were playing dead again. When they "awakened" they were swimming on their sides. This looked odd but as they were clown loaches I thought "hey, everything else they do is odd". So then I tested the water again. pH was 7.6 (what I usually have it at - I know its wrong, so I decided to bring it down to 7) Went to the fish shop and bought a product that claimed to lower the pH to 7 and keep it there. When it did just that, I thought "great".
Then I added the easybalance which I add every 2 weeks. It says you dont need to do water changes at all except for every 6 months, as it eliminates nitrite nitrate etc. But I still do them about every 3 weeks (30%)
Didn't look at the tank until now. The 2 smaller, darker clown loaches were dead. Definitely! These were the two that were swimming side ways this morning. The other one hides all day whereas these 2 swim around.
Anyone have any ideas why they died? I looked at the bodies and there didnt seem to be any difference or abnormalities (except they were dead ) I wouldnt mind but they were expensive fish! Im running out of money......

 

[reg2k2]

Hi James!
I know NOTHING about clown loaches.  But, I was wondering, how long did it take to lower the pH?  I think it's not supposed to change more than 2pts in a day.  Someone else'll have to pop up and give you a good answer.  Sorry 'bout your fish.

 

[james80000]

well it was kinda 7.6 or 7.4 and it went to 7 after bout 10mins

 

[Rose]

Remember what I said about clowns being sensitive fish when small. Taking the pH down that quickly was probably what killed them in the end. However swimming on thier sides says they were sick before that. I need all the info you could possibly think of about your set up so I can figure out what is going on. I also need all the info on your fish you can think of. The more info we have the better the chances are of us being able to figure out what went wrong. Rose

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
KH
Temperature
Tank size/how long in operation
Filtration
Aeration
Water change amount/frequency Water


additives/conditioners/pH adjustors Medications




What, how much and how often do you feed your fish?




Tank inhabitants (specify number, size and type of fish)





Any new fish added to the tank? Who and when?





Any unusual findings on the fish? Such as "grains of salt", a yellowish coating, "annoying" splotches/streaks, frayed fins, pop-eyes, ulcers, etc?






Any unusual behavior? Such as not eating, acting sluggish, hiding, problems swimming, etc?

 

[james80000]

Well I will give you as much info as I have.
Ammonia: Fish shop (reliable) said nothing to worry about(last week)
Nitrite: As Ammonia
Nitrate: He said it was good and low
pH: 7.0 now, as I said it was 7.4-7.6
kH: Dont know the reading
Temp: 76 degrees F. Constantly
Tank size: 3 foot. 25 gallons. Been in operation for 2months approx. Cycled quite quickly.
Filtration: Fluval 3
Aeration: Because of the filter used, none is needed.
WAter Change: Aprox every 3 weeks, I take 1/3 of the tanks water out. The water from the tank is approx pH 7.5. I add this to the tank after dechlorination (SAFEGUARD used). The water is about the right temp. (the 2 sources feel the same temp). The last time I did a water change, I used a newly bought gravel cleaner syphon, which cleans the gravel. I only cleaned half of the gravel though. The last water change i did was last week, the day we got the clownfish. Note; I did the water change BEFORE the clownfish were added.
Additives: Dechlorinater during water change(SAFEGUARD). A product that maintains ecological balance-ie prevents nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, prevents water changes(but i do them anyway), keeps pH constant, and helps prevent disease (EASYBALANCE by TETRA) last used today, used every 2 weeks. For pH levelling today is the 2nd time i have had to adjust the pH. The first time the pH was up around 9-all the fish were dying so i added some pH leveller to 7, but it only got to about 7.5. (im surprised the fish all didnt die!!) Today I decided to bring the pH down to 7 so I added the pH leveller again and it came down to 7. (PROPER PH by AQUARIUM PHARMACEUTICALS)
I feed the fish dried flake food, as much as i can hold btween my finger and thumb, all gone in 3 minutes. It is all gone within 3 mins. This I do on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. (The days of Coronation St is how i remember!!!!). This is done in the morning as soon as I get up. The clowns seemed to be feeding ok the last (and only) time I fed them. Taking most of it off the bottom.
Tank Inhabitants: 1 upside down catfish (2inches never leaves his shell-had him since beginning) (changes from pale to dark quite a lot)
1 Angel (not aggresive, small-about 1 and a half inch diameter) (the sole survivor of my angels-he seems ok though)
3 Guppies(1male + 2 female) (inch and a half each-keep themselves to themselves-had them about 40days)
2 Black Widows (had since beginning- medium about 1 inch-fight among selves- also change colour a lot)
3 Golden Barbs(had since start about 1 inch each. Were actually nipping the clowns tails when they played dead)
5 neons (peaceful average size for neons)
2  neon tetra Gouramis (added at same time as clowns- seem ok - about 2 inches and 2 1/2 inches)
5 mollies (1 1/2 inches each approx)( dont know all of the sexes- bought at different times- Never bother the other fish- 3 of them bought at same time as clowns) (1 black, 1 white, 3 dalmations)
And just the one (larger and paler) clown loach left. He hides all day.
New fish: Well I have detailed which fish were added at the same time as the clowns (3 dalmation mollies, 2 neon tetra gouramis, 3 neon tetras.) These were added on Wednesday (7/Aug) at bout 8 oclock in the evening. First feed was on Friday morning.
Unusual Things: None- I checked the 2 dead clowns bodies, didnt seem to be anything out of the ordinary. I have told you the unusual behavoural patterns above. The only thing is, the 2 dead clown loaches seemed to be acting sluggish since about yesterday. Also,as I said before, the 2 dead clowns were swimming on their sides for a bit.
If I type anymore then my hands will fall off! That is all the detail i can possibly think of! I hope I find out why they died now!!!! Thanks-everyone welcome to have their input- PLEASE do!
ps no medication used

 

[Dragonslair]

This is only my personal input James.
Clown loaches are very sensitive to water quality, and as my learned colleague has mentioned it is for certain that it finally succumbed to PH shock. You should not adjust the PH of your water unless it is going to remain constant-FOREVER. Your lfs if it is within your surrounding water supply area will probably have ordinary conditioned tapwater with whatever PH your water is. The loaches will have acclimatised to that.If your lfs has imported them in, the ones that died during quarantining you will have never known about. The changing of colours of your other fishes is not a good sign. It shows that they are under stress, probably PH shock. Unless you are going for a known wild species that is directly imported from whatever waters, I would suggest that you leave the PH adjustment alone. Fishes from your lfs will have adapted, so there's no need for you to readjust. You will just be causing more hassle for yourself. If you have medicated the water, the medication used are toxic to clowns. The only medication that can be used safely with clowns is WS3(manfactured by King British) So if your water parameters are O.K. for your other fishes, I would suggest it was probably dieing from poisoning. When you picked them up and you said they looked fine, did you notice and blotches or redness on any part of their bodies,gills or any bloating or they may have looked,"fatter" If the answer is yes to any of those, it has probably haemorraged and died because it bled to death. I know loaches love to hide etc. but hiding deep within the shell might have been the only it had to reach some clear water. I don't know as it is purely circumstantial and conjective. The only way to know is to "open it up".Sorry!!!
I will be getting a lab soon(it's a shed really) so that I can setup a fishy hospital come mortuary, come lab. I'll tell you more when I qualify to be a fishy doctor for real.

 

[james80000]

fish are more trouble than they are worth. All that work and effort to keep them happy. Then i try to make things better by setting the right pH. OH NO............... they cant cope with something so drastic as a .2 of a degree change in hydrogen atoms.
They are really getting me down, specially when they die for no apparant reason, but of course ahhhhhhhhh rambling

 

[pete]

Firstly hi ive been away for a while due to p.c probs but im normally a regular in here (more like a house plant really lol)

Now on to your problem..................

Your water change routine is all wrong my friend and this "easy balance" is a very bad thing to use as they say not to change the water for 6 mths and then do a massive water change which as we all know is very bad for fish!!

My recommendation is to stop using easy balance and do regular 20% water changes for a start!, use good quality dechlorinator but NOT stress coat as this also kills fish IMO

This should get you started m8 and please keep us all posted as to progress

 

[Great Lakes]

James, my PH is a rock solid 7.6-7.8. Never fluctuates, so I leave it, and have been keeping happy fish for years. So don't sweat the PH levels.

My advice would be to agree with Pete, and skip the chems. Let your fish become used to the tank. Do nothing to change the parameters, and the fish will acclimate nicely. Also, you are running close to your fish limits also. Don't forget that as the fish mature, they will get bigger. Enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

[Dragonslair]

James, we've all been there at one time or another and we've all felt the same way as you do now. It's part of the process that we humans have to go through to adapt to another world. Just think for one moment if you were shrunk down to size and then tossed into a huge tank of water with a scuba suit. First of all how would you feel and secondly you have all this stuff around you changing your environment. I have learnt to be a fishkeeper you must basically think like a fish. Remember you are GOD to them, you are "playing" at the almighty. You have in your hands the capability of life and death for these creatures in your keep. Once the fish make your tank their world, they will know nothing else. They won't think I'm in a tank or I'm trapped-let me out. They will accept that they are in a world. That is why you should always buy the biggest tank you can afford and for the space you can spare.
-----------------------------------------------------
Welcome back pete, it's been a long time. A lot of catching up to do.

 

[ostrow]

James: don't despair too bad. I have recently (am still?) going through similar start-up problems. For example, a little while back I had a massive snail infestation. People were telling me to get clown loaches. But my tank is too small. And some who gave the advice to get them were also advising meds for other problems in the tank. It now appears that loaches are sensitive to antibiotics, etc.

What I'm saying is, yeah, sometimes you do what you think will help the fish and the tank and the result is the opposite.

I like Dragon's analogy. Humans get the ability to reason, and look what we do with it sometimes (war, violent crime, etc). I'm not a tree-hugging hippy freak or anything, in fact I'm a Political Scientist and very much a realist. But this is simply the truth!

And now, getting to Dragon. Is that a hospital or a morgue you are setting up? Sounds more like a morgue, with you as a undertaker/coroner. So instead of sturgeon surgeon you may have to carp coroner.

Reason I ask is