A Million Questions!

adymcd

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OK I have inherited a fish tank in a round about sort of a way that my wife bought for our son. We now have a week old baby so she has other things to deal with. I think through a combination of our lack of knowledge and poor advice form the shop we now have a multitude of problems.

The tank is a Fluval Edge, we have set it up as per the instructions in the box, the first fish that were introduced all died over a two week period which the shop said was due to a high nitrate level, we have now reintroduced more fish, in my opinion possible too many.

So now for some of the questions / concerns.

  • The water seems clear bit the gravel is growing a green crust.
  • The plant that has been in around four weeks is slowly turning from green to black
  • We have been advised to empty 50% of the water evry three months, is this correct? Do we just replace with ordinary tap water?
  • How often should we feed?

If I need to give further information please tell me what you need to know and I will try to answer.
 
I can't seem to edit the original post but thought it may be worth pointing out that the fish all seem very active and healthy.

Th eplant seems to have a few small air bubbles on the tips of the leaves.
 
First of, welcome to TTF

Second, the fish shop who told you high nitrats killed the fish is talking absolute rubbish. I would steer clear of their 'advice' in future.
The fish died due to high ammonia (which they extrete as a waste product just like we do when we go to the loo). There are bacteria that eat the ammonia and turn it into nitrite (also very toxic) but then there is another set of bacteria that eat this and turns it into nitrates (these are safe even up to relatively high levels).
The whole process of these bacteria maturing to a level that keeps your fish safe is called cycling. Read all of the below articles to get yourself up to speed...
What's Cycling
The Nitrogen Cycle
Fishless Cycling
Fish-in Cycling

You are currently in a fish in cycle. So once you've read those links you need to decide if you want to carry on with fish in (which will require 50-80% water changes every day) or switch to fishless. Where you remove all fish and let the tank cycle with an ammonia source that you create (either using bottled household ammonia or fish food/dead frozen prawns etc).

Eitherways you will need a test kit and I personally recommend the api freshwater master test kit (bout £18 on ebay)

To answer your specific questions...
The green crust could be algae or BGA (cyanobacteria). A picture would be helpful, if it's algae it's not harmful, just unsightly.
I would remove the plant, the high ammonia and varying water stats sound like they have killed it. It will now only be creating more ammonia.
In a fully cycled tank you should aim to remove 20-30% of the water (it varies depending on the individual tank) every week. You should replace it with dechlorinated tap water. In a tank that is fish-in cycling the tank often requires 50-80% changes once or twice daily until it is cycled.
Atm I suggest feeding once every other day and only as much as they eat in a couple of minutes, remove the excess as it will rot. Normally you would feed daily (or at least most days, but everything you feed atm will be making the ammonia level worse.. so you need to keep the fish alive but feed no more than is strictly neccesary).

Finally... what fish do you have?

Edited to add: Fish do seem healthy in a fish in cycle normally.... or at least they do until it's too late. Once they start gasping for air or twitching it's normally too late to save them.
 
Hiya. Just starting out myself but I think the fish shop haven't given you great advice. It is more likely to be high ammonia levels that killed your previous fish. Your filter will not have the necessary bacteria in it to process the fish wastes at the moment. Rather than going into a long winded answer, you are best to look for the topics on cycling a tank on the forum. You would either have to follow the fish in cycle as you already have fish, or if possible, you could rehome the fish and start doing a fishless cycle which is kinder, also explained in the forums. I will try and find the correct links to these topics for you.
 
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=175355


Hope this helps
 
Thanks for the replies, not sure if I have explained myself as well as I thought, the LFS has said cycling will be finished by now, here is a brief timeline of what we have done.

  • Set the tank up and used the fluval supplied treatment for the water and cycling products, the tank was left to run for a week.
  • Three fish, I believe they were platties were added followed by another two different fish a week later
  • Two weeks later, so now four weeks in all these fish had died.
  • The tank was left for a week without fish in but running.
  • New fish were introduced over a two week period.
  • These fish have now been in for a further four weeks.

So the tank has been running for around ten weeks in total. Could it still be cycling?

On the advice of LFS we have been feeding once a day with a 'good' pinch of food.

We have never changed any of the water only topped up with tap water due to evaporation again on the advice of LFS!

I will buy a test kit later today.
 
Hi. Yes I think it will definitely still be cycling. The advice I have had on this and another good forum is that fish in cycling can take up to 20 weeks. You will need to carry out regular partial water changes all the time it is cycling to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrites as close to zero as possible as this is more than likely what has been killing your fish. Once you get your test kit this will enable you to manage it better. On such a small tank you would probably be best changing 10% of the water every day. I know it seems like a pain but it is really necessary to avoid your fish suffering.

Maureen
 
Hi. Yes I think it will definitely still be cycling. The advice I have had on this and another good forum is that fish in cycling can take up to 20 weeks. You will need to carry out regular partial water changes all the time it is cycling to keep the levels of ammonia and nitrites as close to zero as possible as this is more than likely what has been killing your fish. Once you get your test kit this will enable you to manage it better. On such a small tank you would probably be best changing 10% of the water every day. I know it seems like a pain but it is really necessary to avoid your fish suffering.

Maureen

Should these water changes include touching the gravel at all?
 
It will do no harm to lightly siphon through the gravel whilst you are removing your water. Most of the bacteria you want to build up are located in your filter. If you feel the filter needs a clean at any point only give it a very light swish around in the tank water you have removed and do not wash it in tap water as the chlorine will kill off any good bacteria that you build up.
 
Finally... what fish do you have?

This is really the the lack of knowledge kicks in, the wife can't remember what she was sold other than we have a male and a female 'Siamese fighting fish', some neon tetra and something similar looking with black rear half to its body.
 
Hmm, I would imagine it's still cycling... mainly because you really overloaded the tank in the first place so the ammonia will have sky rocketed to levels above what the bacteria we want grow at. Instead a second 'wrong' colony will have formed in the first few weeks so your proper cycle is likely to have started some time after the first lot of fish died however this is easily proved one way or another by testing the water with a test kit.

Have you found the male and female fighters have been...fighting? These two fish normally shouldn't EVER be kept together unless they're actually breeding as the males (and females sometimes) are extremely agressive to their own species.
You can't keep males together AT ALL. But I'm hearing more and more reports of people keeping males n females together long term. However alot of the time I see pictures of these fish and they're normally looking miserable and with tatty fins...

I can't think what your other fish (like a neon tetra but with a black rear half) is...
Any chance you could get some pics?

It'd help me to id all the fish and possibly ID the green stuff on the gravel.

Oh and let me stress again, going by the original advice (and subsequent advice/the fish they gave you) I would not trust ANYTHING your LFS says. Only go there knowing what you want... don't rely on them for anything again.
 
Hi and Welcome to the beginners section adymcd!

I see you are receiving excellent advice from C101 and Mo. A wonderful hobbyist forum like TFF is a whole different place than the local fish shop. We see multiple cases like your situation every month and have grown quite used to the very different info we see the stores and many beginner books give out. Its a somewhat complicated story but the advice in many shops may have come about as a combination of business pressures and also a lack of patience on the part of shoppers/beginners that come in to the shops. Business owners know that they have only a short time span to capture the interest of shoppers and pull them in to the hobby and the purchases that will keep them engaged. Over time the selling process has separated completely from the needs of the animals themselves and in fact their deaths tend to reinforce the business model that has the feedback of higher sales if the first tank or two of fish all die. Of course, again, I'd like to emphasize that this generalization has plenty of exceptions in great shops out there that are owned and run by experienced hobbyists such as you'll find here on TFF. Anyway, now that you're here, you'll gradually see this picture emerge as you get in to the hobby.

While the weeks of fish activity and feeding will have been causing a fish-in cycle of sorts to be occurring in your filter, it remains to be seen what the real result is, since you did not have the information or prior knowledge to perform the cycling systematically. The only way to test this is to obtain a good liquid-reagent based test kit, as C101 has outlined. I too am one who recommends the API Freshwater Master Test Kit as a good one to help beginners get a feel for the real situation in their tank. Its important to realize that you are not just checking this one time to see if your tank system is ok, what you are really doing is -learning- about the single most important baseline set of knowledge for all freshwater hobbyists. It will do you in good stead for many years if you continue to keep tanks.

The other powerful baseline set of skills involves water changes and the maintenance habits that surround them. The water change habit should be established early on as a beginner. If one falls into the bad habit of simply topping up tanks to take care of evaporation, problems will eventually result. Good fish water contains all sorts of minerals and organics and when water evaporates, these are left behind. If not removed periodically, they will build up and the fish will become used to too high a level of them. So the good habit is to always -remove- water, in addition to adding the water that will top up the tank. Not only that but the removal of the water should always take place as a "gravel clean" or "substrate clean" process. Because debris is a bit heavier than water, it will always eventually make its way down to the substrate and collect there. Some of this debris will expose charged ions on a molecular scale and so some chemicals in the water which have charge properties will be attracted to it. This leads to the substrate areas being traps of a sort for all sorts of the things we want to be regularly removing from our tanks.

This is why you always see "gravel siphons" for sale in tropical fish shops. The clear cylinder end is used to "deep clean" the debris out of the gravel and help it to be siphoned off as the water is sucked out of the tank and off to your backyard garden or the drain. Out goes lots of organic debris, which if left in the tank will be broken down to eventually form ammonia and feed in to the nitrogen cycle of the tank. In addition to the organic particles (from excess fish food, fish waste and live plant debris) we also want to remove plenty of unseen things like heavy metal molecules and organic molecules of various sizes. The water can be crystal clear and still contain excess quantities of these things.

So the "weekly gravel-clean-water-change" will be a skill that the members will help you with. The return water should normally be tap water and it should be treated with a good "conditioner" to remove chlorine/chloramines. In the cases where a larger percentage of water has been removed (and this is often quite a good thing) then temperature matching should be carried out, roughly, by testing that the return water feels the same to your hand as the current tank water. This water change skill is not just for weekly maintenance, it is the same procedure that you do in times of concern or crisis. If your test kits show that ammonia or nitrite(NO2) (the two poisons we learn to keep our eye on) have gone above 0.25ppm or 0.30ppm for some reason, then the gravel-clean-water-change (often to the larger tune of 50% to 80% of the tank volume) is best action an aquarist will usually take.

All this hobbyist talk will sound like a lot at first but I promise you that eventually, if you stick with it, you'll be pleasantly surprised at the simplicity of the processes that will make you the master of any size freshwater tank your family wants to have over the years. The members here are great and usually there will be someone happy to share their thoughts and experiences.

~~waterdrop~~ :D
edit: spelling
 
Hmm, I would imagine it's still cycling... mainly because you really overloaded the tank in the first place so the ammonia will have sky rocketed to levels above what the bacteria we want grow at. Instead a second 'wrong' colony will have formed in the first few weeks so your proper cycle is likely to have started some time after the first lot of fish died however this is easily proved one way or another by testing the water with a test kit.

Have you found the male and female fighters have been...fighting? These two fish normally shouldn't EVER be kept together unless they're actually breeding as the males (and females sometimes) are extremely aggressive to their own species.
You can't keep males together AT ALL. But I'm hearing more and more reports of people keeping males n females together long term. However alot of the time I see pictures of these fish and they're normally looking miserable and with tatty fins...

I can't think what your other fish (like a neon tetra but with a black rear half) is...
Any chance you could get some pics?

It'd help me to id all the fish and possibly ID the green stuff on the gravel.

Oh and let me stress again, going by the original advice (and subsequent advice/the fish they gave you) I would not trust ANYTHING your LFS says. Only go there knowing what you want... don't rely on them for anything again.

The male and the female seem to get along fine almost ignoring each other to be honest.

I have just been back to the LFS for a test kit and some water dechlorinator, I have identified the other fish as Harliquins.

Water test results are

NO-3 = 75
NO-2 = 0
GH = 16
KH = 10
PH = 8
Chlorine = 0

I have emptied 50% of the tank water, cleaned the gravel and replaced with fresh treated water, should I re test later tonight?
 
Not sure if it makes a difference but they didn't have the API kit so I had to get a Tetra 6 in 1, they are like paper strips that you mach the colour up on.
 
Lol, you didn't need to tell me you had the paper strips. I was about to comment and tell you that you had the paper strips and that you'd pretty much wasted your money as they're very in accurate when it comes to ammonia and nitrites (well... nitrites... they don't measure ammonia).

I'd take those results with a pinch of salt.

But the water changes will have done some good. :) Keep and eye on the male and female betta by the way, just incase.
 

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