60 Gallon Planted Project - Seeking Advice!

[catfish101]

Hi all,
 
I've been essentially out of the planted hobby for several years, and am looking to get back into it. I'm very interested in doing this right, and my goal is transform my 60 gallon into a very low-end high tech planted tank, and I would greatly appreciate any and all input!
 
Current:
What I currently have is a 60 gallon tank with Seachem Flourite substrate (~2 inches deep) with a Fluval AC70 filter, and some aeration stones. Stock comprised of the following:
3 turquoise rainbows
7 cherry barbs
4 clown loaches
3 SAE
2 pictus cats
1 large rapheal cat
1 clown pleco
 -This has been my stock for years, and I'm probably not going to change it much besides maybe a few additions. 
 
Lighting:
Currently running a standard T8 bulb, but have a duel compact T5 fixture that I just need to buy bulbs for was thinking about two of these http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+23649&pcatid=23649 but Need recommendations and input! 
 
CO2:
Probably just going to set up a DIY system with a diffuser that sits below a power head. This is the best way I can think of to ensure maximal diffusion, any ideas??
 
Ferts/Nutrients:
Also not really sure here, I know that Seachem has some good products, but could anyone recommend what I would need for this set up? 
 
The plants I would like to keep include vals, crypts, swords, ludwiga, hygrophila, and sure a few others, recommendations???These are mostly lower tech but I am interested in investing in some higher tech attributes in order to 1. ensure healthy growth and development, and 2. prevent algae!!!
 
I currently have a large amount of java fern that I just introduced to the tank on a log, as well as two new sword plants. They seem to be adapting well, but this is with low light, no CO2, and no ferts. Looking to start upgrading very soon once I get some feedback here. 
 
I've attached a few pictures so far, most of the fish are hiding but this gives a basic idea of the aquarium as it stands. 
 
Thanks in advance for your input and I'm really looking forward to this project!!!

 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Wow, from that one FTS it doesn't look like a 60 gallon tank. What are the dimensions?


In other news, I would rehomed the clown loaches... They really need a 6foot long tank at minimum, but longer is better.


Regarding the ferts, I'd recommend going with dry "salts" if you can get them over the Seachem products. The Seachem products are ridiculously expensive by comparison. Your diffuser plan is solid, but if there's.a way to get the bubbles directly into the power head uptake, that would help, and keep it as low in the water as possible.

 

[Byron]

I agree on the clown loaches, definitely.  I also agree the dry ferts may be better, but this depends upon where you end up with the lighting and CO2, as I will try to explain.  You probably already realize that one has to attain a balance involving light (intensity and duration factor in) and nutrients, of which there are 17 essential for aquatic plants.
 
You mention low-end high tech, involving CO2 and higher light, so this is the first major aspect to settle.  I have never bothered with CO2, but if I were to do so, I would use a reliable CO2 diffuser, not the diy yeast type which I understand can be more trouble than benefit.  Once you decide if CO2 is or is not part of this, you can decide on the light.  Having more light intensity than what the plants require and what is in balance with nutrients will be a recipe for algae.  The light intensity, species and numbers of plants, fish load, and fertilization all contribute to the balance, and if any one of these is too much or too few, algae will take advantage.
 
As for the linked tubes, I frequently recommend ZooMed lighting but I am not certain of this particular tube.  I would want to see the spectrum.  Many of these "plant" tubes are high in blue and red, causing a purplish hue, and they are weaker in intensity than the daylight mixes.
 
I use the Seachem Flourish line (some of them, not all) but I have low-tech tanks and once or at most twice a week with certain of these is sufficient to balance my moderate lighting.  Another comparable line is their new AquaVitro which I haven't tried as it is considerably more expensive.  And there is also the Brightwell Aquatics line.  But all of these are better suited to non-CO2 and moderate lighting.
 
The plants in the photos clearly look good, so you have a balance now, but any tweaking of that has to be thought out as a whole.  I will attach a photo of one or two of my present planted tanks (I have seven presently) just to illustrate what is possible with the natural or low-tech method without adding any form of CO2 and staying with moderate lighting.  Not all species of plants will work here, but the photos should give an idea of what one can achieve minimally, provided the balance is established.
 
Byron.

 

[catfish101]

I agree on the clown loaches, definitely.  I also agree the dry ferts may be better, but this depends upon where you end up with the lighting and CO2, as I will try to explain.  You probably already realize that one has to attain a balance involving light (intensity and duration factor in) and nutrients, of which there are 17 essential for aquatic plants.
 
You mention low-end high tech, involving CO2 and higher light, so this is the first major aspect to settle.  I have never bothered with CO2, but if I were to do so, I would use a reliable CO2 diffuser, not the diy yeast type which I understand can be more trouble than benefit.  Once you decide if CO2 is or is not part of this, you can decide on the light.  Having more light intensity than what the plants require and what is in balance with nutrients will be a recipe for algae.  The light intensity, species and numbers of plants, fish load, and fertilization all contribute to the balance, and if any one of these is too much or too few, algae will take advantage.
 
As for the linked tubes, I frequently recommend ZooMed lighting but I am not certain of this particular tube.  I would want to see the spectrum.  Many of these "plant" tubes are high in blue and red, causing a purplish hue, and they are weaker in intensity than the daylight mixes.
 
I use the Seachem Flourish line (some of them, not all) but I have low-tech tanks and once or at most twice a week with certain of these is sufficient to balance my moderate lighting.  Another comparable line is their new AquaVitro which I haven't tried as it is considerably more expensive.  And there is also the Brightwell Aquatics line.  But all of these are better suited to non-CO2 and moderate lighting.
 
The plants in the photos clearly look good, so you have a balance now, but any tweaking of that has to be thought out as a whole.  I will attach a photo of one or two of my present planted tanks (I have seven presently) just to illustrate what is possible with the natural or low-tech method without adding any form of CO2 and staying with moderate lighting.  Not all species of plants will work here, but the photos should give an idea of what one can achieve minimally, provided the balance is established.
 
Byron.

Bryon your tanks look awesome! I really like the natural look and I would say that's in line with what I'm striving for. So maybe no CO2? I guess I would just be concerned about having too much light and the risk of a lot of algae growth. Would two 54 watt T5 lights be too much for my set up? What do you have? 
 
My plants do seem to be doing okay so far, but I've only had them about a week so I feel like its still much too early to really tell. 
 
With regard to the loaches, maybe it would be best to rehome them. I have also been thinking about rehoming the raphael as he is a big fish compared to when I bought him. I would feel a bit bad though because we've had him in our tanks for around ten years since he was just a little guy, and I feel like ultimately  it wouldn't be right to get rid of him. 

Wow, from that one FTS it doesn't look like a 60 gallon tank. What are the dimensions?


In other news, I would rehomed the clown loaches... They really need a 6foot long tank at minimum, but longer is better.


Regarding the ferts, I'd recommend going with dry "salts" if you can get them over the Seachem products. The Seachem products are ridiculously expensive by comparison. Your diffuser plan is solid, but if there's.a way to get the bubbles directly into the power head uptake, that would help, and keep it as low in the water as possible.

Hi thanks for the response! 
 
It is definitely a 60 gal, might just look out of wack since this was was cell phone pic that probably had to get configured differently before being uploaded. The dimensions are 48" x 12" x 24" (length, width, height). 
 
With regard to the clown loaches, maybe you're right that it would be best to rehome them. I will look around and see if I can find any of my local reptile friends with fish tanks that might be interested. 
 
Do you have any idea which salts/ferts would be most important and any recommendation on where I could purchase them?
 
Thanks again!!

 

[Byron]

On the fish issues first.  The Raphael attains 7 inches which is not so bad in a 4-foot tank.   The clown loaches though usually grow quickly to around 5 inches, then seem to stall, but in the right environment and if healthy they will continue until they are somewhere between 8 and 12 inches, with some sources reporting up to 16.
 
Thanks for your kind words.  If this is the sort of thing you're after, I would forget CO2, and be careful of bright lighting.  And two 48-inch T5 HO tubes would be way too much, just asking for algae soup.  The existing T8, is it a 48-inch tube, so full length of the tank?  This could work with a good quality tube, like the Hagen Life-Glo.  A dual T8 would be better; this is what i have over those tanks in the photos.  I have to keep the duration at 8 hours on the 90g, and only 7 hours on the 70g (which is 4 inches shallower) or brush algae increases.  The more faster-growing plants in the tank, the more they will use the light, so while what you now have probably works with a full tank of plants it may be expecting too much.  I had thought the existing plants had been there a while from your original post, misunderstood.
 
Finding T8 fixtures these days is next to impossible, as they are "out-dated" with the T5 and now LED developments.  I recently had to replace or fix two of my three dual tube T8's, and found it easiest to remove all the existing hardware and install a dual-tube shop fixture in the housing.  I'm no carpenter/technician by any standard, but I managed this quite well.
 
The nice thing about dual T8 with 48-inch tubes is that you have good light but not in excess, and much less expensive.  I use the Phillips tubes from Home Depot, one 5000K and one 6500K.  Replaced every 12 months for a few dollars.
 
Back to the CO2...the decomposition of organics in the substrate is the prime source of natural CO2, along of course with fish, plant and bacteria respiration.  This can result in a decent amount naturally, and if the light is not excessive, nor the duration, and the plants are not very fast growing species, this can work well.  My tanks have been running like this for a couple decades.  I use floating plants as fast growing because they can assimilate CO2 from the air.  The lower plants are less demanding.  As you can see, I have no stem plants because these being fast-growing require more light and that would mean CO2.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Must have just been the angle of the picture...

One other carbon solution that hasn't been mentioned is "flourish excel". This offers the plants carbon in a different form than CO2. That form is glutaldehyde, and the nice benefit to this additive is that actually is also an algal inhibitor. This needs to be added either daily or every other day, but serves as a far more stable carbon source than yeast diy solutions. The worst possible case with any CO2 additions is inconsistency.


I'll look up the specific salts I've used in the past. I know you can't get them from the same outlet as I did, since you're in the UK. But I'm pretty sure they are readily available there.

 

[catfish101]

On the fish issues first.  The Raphael attains 7 inches which is not so bad in a 4-foot tank.   The clown loaches though usually grow quickly to around 5 inches, then seem to stall, but in the right environment and if healthy they will continue until they are somewhere between 8 and 12 inches, with some sources reporting up to 16.
 
Thanks for your kind words.  If this is the sort of thing you're after, I would forget CO2, and be careful of bright lighting.  And two 48-inch T5 HO tubes would be way too much, just asking for algae soup.  The existing T8, is it a 48-inch tube, so full length of the tank?  This could work with a good quality tube, like the Hagen Life-Glo.  A dual T8 would be better; this is what i have over those tanks in the photos.  I have to keep the duration at 8 hours on the 90g, and only 7 hours on the 70g (which is 4 inches shallower) or brush algae increases.  The more faster-growing plants in the tank, the more they will use the light, so while what you now have probably works with a full tank of plants it may be expecting too much.  I had thought the existing plants had been there a while from your original post, misunderstood.
 
Finding T8 fixtures these days is next to impossible, as they are "out-dated" with the T5 and now LED developments.  I recently had to replace or fix two of my three dual tube T8's, and found it easiest to remove all the existing hardware and install a dual-tube shop fixture in the housing.  I'm no carpenter/technician by any standard, but I managed this quite well.
 
The nice thing about dual T8 with 48-inch tubes is that you have good light but not in excess, and much less expensive.  I use the Phillips tubes from Home Depot, one 5000K and one 6500K.  Replaced every 12 months for a few dollars.
 
Back to the CO2...the decomposition of organics in the substrate is the prime source of natural CO2, along of course with fish, plant and bacteria respiration.  This can result in a decent amount naturally, and if the light is not excessive, nor the duration, and the plants are not very fast growing species, this can work well.  My tanks have been running like this for a couple decades.  I use floating plants as fast growing because they can assimilate CO2 from the air.  The lower plants are less demanding.  As you can see, I have no stem plants because these being fast-growing require more light and that would mean CO2.
 
Byron.

Bryon,
 
Thanks again for the reply, I appreciate all the info you put in there!
 
The light fixture I have now is 48 inches. I've been thinking about using the dual T5 HO fixture in addition to a power head, as well as flourish excel and from what I've been reading, it sounds like my chances of keeping algae away might be good with that. I just feel like I would be much better off with the T5 as opposed to the single T8, especially with such a deep tank, would you agree? Or if you really think a single T8 would work as well, I would reconsider that option.
 
I'm thinking that I will also use Flourish, as well as Flourish Iron. From what I've been reading, these, along with the Excel are the most important three supplements in the line. 
 
Is the floating plant in your tank pennywort? 
 
Thanks!

 

[catfish101]

 

On the fish issues first.  The Raphael attains 7 inches which is not so bad in a 4-foot tank.   The clown loaches though usually grow quickly to around 5 inches, then seem to stall, but in the right environment and if healthy they will continue until they are somewhere between 8 and 12 inches, with some sources reporting up to 16.
 
Thanks for your kind words.  If this is the sort of thing you're after, I would forget CO2, and be careful of bright lighting.  And two 48-inch T5 HO tubes would be way too much, just asking for algae soup.  The existing T8, is it a 48-inch tube, so full length of the tank?  This could work with a good quality tube, like the Hagen Life-Glo.  A dual T8 would be better; this is what i have over those tanks in the photos.  I have to keep the duration at 8 hours on the 90g, and only 7 hours on the 70g (which is 4 inches shallower) or brush algae increases.  The more faster-growing plants in the tank, the more they will use the light, so while what you now have probably works with a full tank of plants it may be expecting too much.  I had thought the existing plants had been there a while from your original post, misunderstood.
 
Finding T8 fixtures these days is next to impossible, as they are "out-dated" with the T5 and now LED developments.  I recently had to replace or fix two of my three dual tube T8's, and found it easiest to remove all the existing hardware and install a dual-tube shop fixture in the housing.  I'm no carpenter/technician by any standard, but I managed this quite well.
 
The nice thing about dual T8 with 48-inch tubes is that you have good light but not in excess, and much less expensive.  I use the Phillips tubes from Home Depot, one 5000K and one 6500K.  Replaced every 12 months for a few dollars.
 
Back to the CO2...the decomposition of organics in the substrate is the prime source of natural CO2, along of course with fish, plant and bacteria respiration.  This can result in a decent amount naturally, and if the light is not excessive, nor the duration, and the plants are not very fast growing species, this can work well.  My tanks have been running like this for a couple decades.  I use floating plants as fast growing because they can assimilate CO2 from the air.  The lower plants are less demanding.  As you can see, I have no stem plants because these being fast-growing require more light and that would mean CO2.
 
Byron.

Bryon,
 
Thanks again for the reply, I appreciate all the info you put in there!
 
The light fixture I have now is 48 inches. I've been thinking about using the dual T5 HO fixture in addition to a power head, as well as flourish excel and from what I've been reading, it sounds like my chances of keeping algae away might be good with that. I just feel like I would be much better off with the T5 as opposed to the single T8, especially with such a deep tank, would you agree? Or if you really think a single T8 would work as well, I would reconsider that option.
 
I'm thinking that I will also use Flourish, as well as Flourish Iron. From what I've been reading, these, along with the Excel are the most important three supplements in the line. 
 
Is the floating plant in your tank pennywort? 
 
Thanks!
 

New plan!
I figure I want to do this right and ensure fast, healthy, plant growth, so I've decided to invest in pressurized CO2. I've been looking up a lot of youtube videos and I think this is the best choice for me, plus I already have a sufficient light source as well as the fluorite substrate. Looking forward to this, will post more updates as available. Thanks!

 

[catfish101]

So, some thoughts and update...
 
Definitely going with the pressurized CO2 as I said. A totally new journey for me, but I am up for the challenge and think for my goals and what I already have, it's the right choice. My plan is to purchase a 24oz paintball tank, along with the Aquatek mini regulator (with tank pressure and output pressure gauges, as well as built in solenoid system) and run it through a power head intake tube. The Aquatek package comes with a bubble counter with an integrated check valve to prevent back flow. Ultimately, I think this is going to be the most cost effective route for what I'm looking for. Even if I need to fill the CO2 tank a bit more often due to smaller size, I'll be able to do it relatively inexpensively for about $2 a tank.
 
So overall I'm thinking over all I'll have this CO2 setup, my dual T5 HO lighting (108 watts total = ~2wpg), fluorite substrate, and Seachem Flourish, Excel, and Iron. Sound good to anyone reading this? 
 
Thank you very much to anyone who has already responded or will in the future, I really appreciate the guidance on here!!!

 

[Byron]

So, some thoughts and update...
 
Definitely going with the pressurized CO2 as I said. A totally new journey for me, but I am up for the challenge and think for my goals and what I already have, it's the right choice. My plan is to purchase a 24oz paintball tank, along with the Aquatek mini regulator (with tank pressure and output pressure gauges, as well as built in solenoid system) and run it through a power head intake tube. The Aquatek package comes with a bubble counter with an integrated check valve to prevent back flow. Ultimately, I think this is going to be the most cost effective route for what I'm looking for. Even if I need to fill the CO2 tank a bit more often due to smaller size, I'll be able to do it relatively inexpensively for about $2 a tank.
 
So overall I'm thinking over all I'll have this CO2 setup, my dual T5 HO lighting (108 watts total = ~2wpg), fluorite substrate, and Seachem Flourish, Excel, and Iron. Sound good to anyone reading this? 
 
Thank you very much to anyone who has already responded or will in the future, I really appreciate the guidance on here!!!

 
With diffused CO2 you do not want Flourish Excel.  This is a so-called liquid carbon that is intended for tanks not running CO2.  It will kill some plants outright, and I have elsewhere written at length on the dangers of this product, but that is irrelevant because with pressurized CO2 it is useless/pointless.
 
You will need a comprehensive nutrient fertilization plan, as with CO2 and high light the other nutrients have to be elevated to balance; daily dosing is normal.  While preparations like Flourish Comprehensive can work, they are very costly.  And they are not really intended for this set-up, being more of a "supplement" in low-tech tanks.  Most people running high-tech planted tanks use dry fertilizer preparations; these are easier and much less expensive.
 
I will leave you in the more capable hands of the high-tech members.  But I will mention that you might want to increase the depth of the substrate, as it seems shallow in the photos for what you are now intending.  I don't know what fish you intend, but if the substrate is going to be fiddled with you might want to replace it with something like sand which is more "universal" in that it serves all fish and plants.  I have used Flourite once, and found it did not benefit the plants (after two years), plus it tore apart the mouths on my substrate fish.  I now use play sand.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 
 
With diffused CO2 you do not want Flourish Excel.  This is a so-called liquid carbon that is intended for tanks not running CO2.  It will kill some plants outright, and I have elsewhere written at length on the dangers of this product, but that is irrelevant because with pressurized CO2 it is useless/pointless.
 
You will need a comprehensive nutrient fertilization plan, as with CO2 and high light the other nutrients have to be elevated to balance; daily dosing is normal.  While preparations like Flourish Comprehensive can work, they are very costly.  And they are not really intended for this set-up, being more of a "supplement" in low-tech tanks.  Most people running high-tech planted tanks use dry fertilizer preparations; these are easier and much less expensive.

 
What dangers are you referring to?  I am aware of its impact on several plant species... such as anacharis, etc.   But, with most plants its a good substitute, and serves as an algae inhibitor (for the same reason that it is dangerous to those few plant species).
 
 
catfish... with pressurized CO2, you'd probably be better off looking into EI dosing of ferts.  

 

[Byron]

What dangers are you referring to?  I am aware of its impact on several plant species... such as anacharis, etc.   But, with most plants its a good substitute, and serves as an algae inhibitor (for the same reason that it is dangerous to those few plant species).
 

 
Three of us (daize, TTA and myself) were discussing this in another thread recently:
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/438308-new-here-need-help-lighting-for-planted-tank-algae-bloom/
 
The ingredient in Excel (as in API's CO2 Booster) is glutaraldehyde (and water).  This is a toxic disinfectant used to kill bacteria in hospitals, etc.  At recommended doses it will kill some plants, and if overdosed it can kill plants, bacteria and fish.  Notwithstanding the "safeguards" mentioned in the other thread, the fact still remains that this is a toxic substance that has the potential to cause considerable trouble.  The fact that it does sometimes kill brush algae should make one wary.  Even Seachem prefer to downplay this fact.
 
From my posts I suspect you recognize that I have an aversion to adding questionable substances into an aquarium with live fish and bacteria.  Given the dangers noted on the UC fact sheet for this substance referenced in the other thread, I think it prudent to point out the risks.
 
Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I don't disagree with your stance... But remember that everything is toxic if not in proper proportions.    

 

[catfish101]

Looking into dry ferts, any benefit to EI over the PPS method?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'll let Tom Barr answer that question, he's far more knowledgable than I am... And I've only ever used the EI method with pressurized CO2. For me EI just seemed far simpler.

PPS is leaner(can limit nutrients in some cases), EI is richer(non limiting most all cases)). Not much difference. NO3 is still NO3, PO4 is still PO4 etc.

You can dose PPS 2-3x a week, or dose EI daily, you can do it in a liquid or dry. Neither matters that much. What does matter is that you are consistent and add enough ferts for the plants.

You cannot blame a particular method for your own issues
..........and........... plenty of folks have.

CO2 is the issue that nutrient dosing often gets the blame for.
Many make bad assumptions there, don;t add enough and then blame the fert dosing.

If you limit some nutrients, you reduce the demand of CO2, because the plant is limited not by CO2 any more, rather some other nutrient.

But that did not address the root cause, poor CO2.
That leads many to think that less PO4 or whatever nutrient you wanna pick is the root cause of their issues, that's simply put: bad logic and poor conclusions and this relationship is testable and supported by the observations.

Overall, nutrients are about the easiest thing, then lights, the hardest and the one that kills more fish, caused stunted tips, poor growth, competition between plant species, and of course more algae issues than any other: CO2.

Adding more CO2 can relieve such issues and gets at the root cause, but you can also reduce and limit the light and this places less demand on CO2 as well Rather than limiting something that changes and needs tested often, limiting light cost less and reduces the amount of pruning and algae growth as well. Less light reduces the amount CO2 fixed by plants in photosynthesis, thus is it's easier to target a good non limiting CO2 ppm.
Then nutrients are also used at slower rate and the plant is able to build and make tissue without running out of anything.

This is basic plant science.

You have the entire control over light, CO2 and nutrients. So it's not just about dosing a certain way, it's also about the light, and the CO2.
and many blame dosing for everything since they cannot test light well or CO2. Or assume too many things are the same with light and CO2.

They are not.

Put another way, folks fail with EI all the time, same for PPS, same for ADA, same for any method...........the user sometimes gets lucky, sometimes they fail and fail no matter what dosing routine they chose(too much light, not enough CO2 etc).

Failure means you did not do something right, it is not confirmation that the method does not work, folks fail for 1001 reasons, there are plenty of examples of where they do work(successes), you can debate why they work, but you cannot blame the method of dosing based on those, because they do work.

That's not confirmation of failure
They all work within context and for some of the same reasons in some cases(say when the light is low), and different reasons in others(say when light is higher and the nutrients limit CO2 in one case and when they are non limiting in another).


Regards,
Tom Barr

http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80239
(Post #4)