1st Time Freshwater Sump Design (feedback, please!)

[wanderingHP]

So I've never used a sump before, but am thinking about building and using one with a 125 gallon tank I have planned. (It was that, or dual canister filters)

I'm just not sure if my volume and "spacing" of things is accurate.

I made it from a few designs I found offline, but I could have misunderstood some basic concept (like overflow, or something...)
(The "open space" between the heater & ceramic rings would be different layers of various media... (carbon, purigen, etc.))

Thanks in advance for ANY feedback!
(If you think it's complete overkill for a heavily planted and stocked 125 gallon, let me know. It just seemed better than 2 cannister filters...)

Thank you thank you!

 

[Colin_T]

You don't need a refugium on a freshwater tank with plants. The refugium is normally used to grow macro algae in marine tanks to help use nutrients and for plankton and small crustaceans to live and breed. It's pointless in a freshwater tank with plants. If you had a Rift Lake cichlid tank, then you can have a refugium to grow plants in.

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The heater should be in an area like the refugium so there is a constant depth of water. The area with the return pump will vary over time, and as water evaporates the level in the pump section will get shallower. This will screw up the heater.

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No point having bio-balls if you have sponges.
No point having ceramic rings if you have bio-balls or sponges.
Sponges do the same thing as bio balls and ceramic beads/ rings and the sponges trap debris too. Just use sponges and save your money.

Don't need egg crate in the narrow section near the pump.

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Don't need a standing water filter on the outlet of a sump. The sump is the filter.

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On a freshwater tank, get an aquarium that is at least half the length of the main tank x the same width and about 18 inches high. Put it on a double tier stand underneath the main tank.

Make sure there is at least 12 inches of space above the sump to get things in and out of it. Lots of people make big sumps and only have a few inches of space above it and can't get into it to clean.

Have cover glasses on the sump to reduce evaporation and help stop mould growing on the stand.

Make sure the sump is big enough to hold the extra water from the main tank during a power failure.

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The tank water drains into a compartment that has some sponges and white filter matt on top of the sponges. The white filter matt gets taken outside and washed once a week or whenever it gets dirty. The sponges can be taken out once a month and washed out in a bucket of tank water.

Don't make the sponges too thick because they can be hard to clean when big and or thick.

The rest of the tank can be the reservoir and house the heater and return pump. If you want to put another baffle in near the pump that is fine. You can have a section for carbon if you like but it isn't normally needed unless you are trying to remove chemicals or heavy metals.

 

[Colin_T]

 

[wanderingHP]

You don't need a refugium on a freshwater tank with plants. The refugium is normally used to grow macro algae in marine tanks to help use nutrients and for plankton and small crustaceans to live and breed. It's pointless in a freshwater tank with plants. If you had a Rift Lake cichlid tank, then you can have a refugium to grow plants in.

------------------
The heater should be in an area like the refugium so there is a constant depth of water. The area with the return pump will vary over time, and as water evaporates the level in the pump section will get shallower. This will screw up the heater.

------------------
No point having bio-balls if you have sponges.
No point having ceramic rings if you have bio-balls or sponges.
Sponges do the same thing as bio balls and ceramic beads/ rings and the sponges trap debris too. Just use sponges and save your money.

Don't need egg crate in the narrow section near the pump.

------------------
Don't need a standing water filter on the outlet of a sump. The sump is the filter.

------------------
On a freshwater tank, get an aquarium that is at least half the length of the main tank x the same width and about 18 inches high. Put it on a double tier stand underneath the main tank.

Make sure there is at least 12 inches of space above the sump to get things in and out of it. Lots of people make big sumps and only have a few inches of space above it and can't get into it to clean.

Have cover glasses on the sump to reduce evaporation and help stop mould growing on the stand.

Make sure the sump is big enough to hold the extra water from the main tank during a power failure.

----------
The tank water drains into a compartment that has some sponges and white filter matt on top of the sponges. The white filter matt gets taken outside and washed once a week or whenever it gets dirty. The sponges can be taken out once a month and washed out in a bucket of tank water.

Don't make the sponges too thick because they can be hard to clean when big and or thick.

The rest of the tank can be the reservoir and house the heater and return pump. If you want to put another baffle in near the pump that is fine. You can have a section for carbon if you like but it isn't normally needed unless you are trying to remove chemicals or heavy metals.

Thanks for the feedback.

1 - You mention not needing a refugium, but I've read MANY articles and forums now where people say a freshwater refugium on a heavily stocked & planted tank will absolutely be beneficial. Why do you feel it will not?

2 - The space with the heater and return pump will ALWAYS be within 1mm of it's desired height. I have a bunch of unused float switches (moving countries and leaving behind 4 aquariums... so I already have all the media & such), and I've already planned the reservoir in the cabinet space I'm having built. I have auto-top off systems in place for all of my tanks, always. I hate "topping off" and I'm too OCD for it to drop "a bit" and not go unnoticed. Knowing that, do you still feel the heather should be in a different section? I was going to place it in between 2 of the "thinly spaced" baffles, but wasn't sure if being against he glass all the time would cause problems or not.

3 - Yes, good point. I would absolutely keep the sponges and the bioballs separate, but the ceramic rings at that point would be overkill.
The sponges & bioballs/ceramic rings serve completely different functions in my design. Using ceramic or bioballs for mechanical filtration is subpar at best (my experience).
And the egg crate "between sections" prevents anything from slipping into the wrong area... bits of sponge, ceramic rings, balls. I wont have any in bags. They'll all be "loose," so I felt having an "egg crate guard" in place would help.

4 - The standing water filter will be used to polish the water. SO far, nothing in the sump design would effectively polish the water for that pristine look. I could add batting, or fine filter media, but they have to be replaced after several days I've found, whereas the standing filters can go for several weeks (at least) while achieving the same result.

5 - OK... I'm pretty sure I don't have it designed to handle overflow possibilities.
That's why I posted here and asked the question if it would be good enough, or do I risk overflow.
If you can tell from looking at it that no it wont, please explain why.
The sump should be half the size, or larger, than the tank dimensions provided...

6 - OK... Your design really isn't what I'm looking for, at all, but I appreciate the feedback still.
(I need the open space below the intake, not sponges, to work as a "fish/shrimp catcher"... and then your design doesn't include multiple elements I WILL include, overkill or not. The design you provided is missing quite a lot for my needs.)
And quick note... I'm not new to fishkeeping at all, but I have never designed or had a sump before.

 

[Colin_T]

Thanks for the feedback.

1 - You mention not needing a refugium, but I've read MANY articles and forums now where people say a freshwater refugium on a heavily stocked & planted tank will absolutely be beneficial. Why do you feel it will not?

If you have a tank full of plants, why do you need more plants in a sump?
If you want plants in a sump, go for it but you just don't need the extra plants.

5 - OK... I'm pretty sure I don't have it designed to handle overflow possibilities.
That's why I posted here and asked the question if it would be good enough, or do I risk overflow.
If you can tell from looking at it that no it wont, please explain why.
The sump should be half the size, or larger, than the tank dimensions provided...

If the sump is half the length and the same width of the main tank, then every inch of water that drains out of the main tank during a power out, will raise the water level in the sump by at least 2 inches, usually more than that.

Most tanks lose about 4 inches of water when the return pump is turned off and that can easily raise the sump water level by 8+ inches. If you have a refugium section and other sections, the sump can easily overflow when the pump is turned off because these sections are already full, thus reducing the space available for the extra water.

 

[clambert122]

Thanks for the feedback.

1 - You mention not needing a refugium, but I've read MANY articles and forums now where people say a freshwater refugium on a heavily stocked & planted tank will absolutely be beneficial. Why do you feel it will not?

2 - The space with the heater and return pump will ALWAYS be within 1mm of it's desired height. I have a bunch of unused float switches (moving countries and leaving behind 4 aquariums... so I already have all the media & such), and I've already planned the reservoir in the cabinet space I'm having built. I have auto-top off systems in place for all of my tanks, always. I hate "topping off" and I'm too OCD for it to drop "a bit" and not go unnoticed. Knowing that, do you still feel the heather should be in a different section? I was going to place it in between 2 of the "thinly spaced" baffles, but wasn't sure if being against he glass all the time would cause problems or not.

3 - Yes, good point. I would absolutely keep the sponges and the bioballs separate, but the ceramic rings at that point would be overkill.
The sponges & bioballs/ceramic rings serve completely different functions in my design. Using ceramic or bioballs for mechanical filtration is subpar at best (my experience).
And the egg crate "between sections" prevents anything from slipping into the wrong area... bits of sponge, ceramic rings, balls. I wont have any in bags. They'll all be "loose," so I felt having an "egg crate guard" in place would help.

4 - The standing water filter will be used to polish the water. SO far, nothing in the sump design would effectively polish the water for that pristine look. I could add batting, or fine filter media, but they have to be replaced after several days I've found, whereas the standing filters can go for several weeks (at least) while achieving the same result.

5 - OK... I'm pretty sure I don't have it designed to handle overflow possibilities.
That's why I posted here and asked the question if it would be good enough, or do I risk overflow.
If you can tell from looking at it that no it wont, please explain why.
The sump should be half the size, or larger, than the tank dimensions provided...

6 - OK... Your design really isn't what I'm looking for, at all, but I appreciate the feedback still.
(I need the open space below the intake, not sponges, to work as a "fish/shrimp catcher"... and then your design doesn't include multiple elements I WILL include, overkill or not. The design you provided is missing quite a lot for my needs.)
And quick note... I'm not new to fishkeeping at all, but I have never designed or had a sump before.

Howdy. Hope the day finds you well.

I use a sump for a 150 gallon, and its much less than what your trying to do here.


Mine is just a simple 2 chamber sump, with an underflow. I pack bio balls and some ceramic into the first chamber, then fiber filter media below that. the heater under that. the pump pulls water down through the bio / filter media into the other side.

I have a protein skimmer in here ( yes i know its not a ton of use for skimming in a fresh water tank. I just use it as an expensive airstone.

And that is more than enough. My filter isnt even close to straining filtering close to 500 gph through it.

And certainly feel free to go your own way, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Colins advice. He really knows his stuff, and is one of the "guru's". Don't be so locked into something your not willing to consider changing your ideas a little if someone shows you a better way.
Anyways. Just my 2 cents.

I hope your project turns out great! Post pictures when you have it up and running.

 

[wanderingHP]

If you have a tank full of plants, why do you need more plants in a sump?
If you want plants in a sump, go for it but you just don't need the extra plants.


If the sump is half the length and the same width of the main tank, then every inch of water that drains out of the main tank during a power out, will raise the water level in the sump by at least 2 inches, usually more than that.

Most tanks lose about 4 inches of water when the return pump is turned off and that can easily raise the sump water level by 8+ inches. If you have a refugium section and other sections, the sump can easily overflow when the pump is turned off because these sections are already full, thus reducing the space available for the extra water.

So you're saying there's no benefit to having refugium with a heavily planted (and stocked) freshwater aquarium?
The refugium isn't just for plants... Pest snails, "work shrimp," and a way to essentially "trap" much of the excess nutrients (that would lead to algae).
So if I wanted a stocked & planted tank to look "pristine" much of the time, without constantly doing maintenance, couldn't a refugium help me achieve that goal?
Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding the purpose of a refugium, but this falls in line with a few articles I read and with a friends experience.


And regarding the space... OK, I'll have to check everything again.
I thought leaving the "1 cm" (or maybe I should open that up more) at the top would allow for any overflow from the tank to in turn overflow into the rest of the "unused space" of the sump design.
But I never really did "check my math," to be honest (I was hoping someone could instantly say "no way, it'll flood." or "it should be fine" hah. Lazy me, sorry.
But yea, I really shouldn't "skimp" on that. I'll check the dimensions and math, thank you.

 

[wanderingHP]

Howdy. Hope the day finds you well.

I use a sump for a 150 gallon, and its much less than what your trying to do here.


Mine is just a simple 2 chamber sump, with an underflow. I pack bio balls and some ceramic into the first chamber, then fiber filter media below that. the heater under that. the pump pulls water down through the bio / filter media into the other side.

I have a protein skimmer in here ( yes i know its not a ton of use for skimming in a fresh water tank. I just use it as an expensive airstone.

And that is more than enough. My filter isnt even close to straining filtering close to 500 gph through it.

And certainly feel free to go your own way, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Colins advice. He really knows his stuff, and is one of the "guru's". Don't be so locked into something your not willing to consider changing your ideas a little if someone shows you a better way.
Anyways. Just my 2 cents.

I hope your project turns out great! Post pictures when you have it up and running.

Thanks again for the responses.

And apologies if I seemed too dismissive in my first reply.

His design having no "fish catcher" (straight onto sponges) wouldn't suit my needs, and then it seems like one large open space otherwise... No room for purigen, carbon, or other media (that I found myself needing on past tanks).
It's VERY cheap for me to get custom made tanks & furniture where I'm at now.
(Moving back to the US in a couple of months, but the price for sumps/tanks/etc. is ridiculous there.)

Anyways... you mention a sump for your 150g..
Just curious but how heavily stocked and planted is it? (I know my design is overkill, and I would rather it be that than not enough, but yea... just want something to compare with )
You say it doesn't filter 550gph, but do you find that to be enough for a 150g planted/stocked tank?

I'm definitely looking for 700+gph turnover, preferably closer to 1000.
(It was going to be "this sump" or 2 Fluval F6s (or one & another cannister).
It seems like sump is the way to go once you hit 100+g, and again, I can get anything made (and drilled) for dirt cheap where I'm at now, so I may as well take advantage of that.)

I'm not really worried about "cost" or overkill (necessarily... I don't want something going "unused," or too redundant), because I'm breaking down 4 high tech tanks here and only establishing the one in my place.
I have more than enough of anything I would need, and the cost to have a sump like that made here (glass, custom) would be under $25.
I'm looking for the "most efficient" form of filtration I can provide for a planted tank with 200+ "small community fish," shrimp & nerites. (It wont be overstocked, but it will be heavy considering the overall quantity.)

And yes, I'll absolutely post pics of things, but it wont be till July that this gets made (I'll have the sump and tank made in the next week, but I wont move till Juneish). Still mocking up designs for the tank itself... that will take me at least 2 months, knowing me

 

[Colin_T]

So you're saying there's no benefit to having refugium with a heavily planted (and stocked) freshwater aquarium?
The refugium isn't just for plants... Pest snails, "work shrimp," and a way to essentially "trap" much of the excess nutrients (that would lead to algae).
So if I wanted a stocked & planted tank to look "pristine" much of the time, without constantly doing maintenance, couldn't a refugium help me achieve that goal?
Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding the purpose of a refugium, but this falls in line with a few articles I read and with a friends experience.

A refugium isn't going to make much, if any difference to a planted tank. The plants growing in the main tank will be using the nutrients.

As for pest snails, why would you want them in a tank? If they get into your refugium, they will probably be in the main tank too.

Shrimp normally live in the main tank to pick up uneaten food and help control algae on plants.

Refugiums are used on marine tanks to grow macro algae that help to use up nutrients like nitrates and phosphates in the water. The macro algae do this because marine tanks don't have plants in. The only plants/ algae that grows in a marine tank is the algae on the glass and rocks, and the zooxanthellae that grows in corals, and it doesn't take many nutrients out of the water. So people grow macro algae like Caulerpa and Halimeda in the refugium to use up the nutrients.

If you want to put some more sections into the sump for carbon or something else, then go for it. But there is no need to get carried away with a freshwater sump.

 

[cdelly]

would have one like this

had a sump on a 4x2x2 tank and most of the section didn't get used. if i needed to use carbon etc, i would put bags by the overflow (fast moving area) and remove when job is done.

you could use one of these with a pump if wanted to https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06ZZC54MR/?tag=

but overall i agree with @Colin_T

 

[madmark285]

I agree with Colin.

I am converting my sump to a fluidized bed filter recommended by cdelly. I also plan on switching to filter socks. They will plug up quickly but are easier to clean compared to foam sponges. I will have a few sets of the socks.

You got 11 divider walls in your sump, you don't need that many. Invest the money into the fluidized bed filter. I would do a 3 wall sump with a foam block in the last section to eliminate the waterfall into the return pump section.

This is my sump, the first wall needs to be moved to the left over for the prefilter section (I will just removing it and add on the prefilter section). The heater section should have been the main filter area ie: the fluidized bed filter section. The blue foam section would not do much, it just stops the waterfall. If I want to add carbon, just push the blue foam down and put in a layer of carbon. To remove the carbon, I just use my small shop vac and suck it out.

 

[wanderingHP]

OK.. thank you thank you.
I understand a bit better now and see what you all are saying.
I was still hoping for something bit more than "2 chambers," because I would rather have it be "overkill" than anything... but yea, I see the point.
How about my new design?
(And do you think it's enough for a 125g tank, not enough, not able to handle overflow, etc.? Also, is there anything inherently wrong with my design? (I would mock this up and give it to my glass guy here, without all the "details" in this image.)


**EDIT** Changed the pic a bit... minor adjustments. OCD me. The 2nd pic shows the "normal water line" as far as I understand it. The 3rd pic shows the "overflow line" in case of an emergency. Absolutely no higher than that. SO, is my math off, or will it overflow with standard plumbing on that 125 gallon tank you think?

 

[madmark285]

I was still hoping for something bit more than "2 chambers," because I would rather have it be "overkill" than anything... but yea, I see the point.

Understood.

In the ceramic ring section, the water will flow over the top of the rings and the heater into the bioballs section. Remember that water will always take the path of less resistance. Can you visually see the heater?

The last divider wall is useless, look at it closely. The divider walls connected to the bottom of the tank control water levels, the water levels shown are not correct.

Personally I would just make a big bioball section.

 

[cdelly]

would have fine filter in the first chambers, don't need any more sponges after that

have a fluid bed in the 2nd camber, use bio balls in the 3rd chamber(but not really needed with the fluid bed)

4th camber empty but to be used for bags/reactors for carbon etc.

return pump only, the fine filter in first chamber will clean the water.

the fine filter will need replacing very often, i use pillow inners just got to check on the chemicals in with them a lot cheaper than buy fishtank fine filter

 

[madmark285]

Just to be clear, my minimal sump pictured above is an example of a bad design. I combined the prefilter/main filter together using a disposable filter pad, fine and course foam shown below:

The problem I have, as organic material builds up, it can no longer support the 400-500 gph flow rate and the
water just overflows into the heater section. My planned modification, I will use (2) 200 micron filter socks for the prefilter. Filter socks work great which is a maintenance problem, they will clog up quickly. For redundancy when the socks clog up, the modified prefilter section will have a course foam pad. The water will exit the sump on the bottom.

Once again I agree with cdelly, build a fluidized bed chamber for the main bio filter. The big advantage of this filter, it is self cleaning as the filter media is constantly hitting each other. This will remove gunk on the media and knock off older and less effective bacteria. I bought used 1 cubic foot AQUANEAT Aquarium Moving Bed Filter Media from Amazon (actually it was just a return item) for $19. It was a great price but would have prefer smaller media.

I underestimated the backflow into the sump when the pump is off, I would have prefer more water capacity for evaporation issues.