1 year old tank with weird results - was it ever even cycled ?!

[scotfishkeeper]

hi I am bit of lurker but sorry my first post has to be a problem and quite a long mess. Some details:

55l cube tank which I have had for 1 year with no loses apart from old betta who died from boating + 2 recent snails.
4 harlequin rasbora's + 6 tetras plus 1 betta + 1 kuli loach + 1 platy + 1 tiny platy fry
good amount of plants all very healthy looking and growing
virtually 0 algae
i water change once per week 25% and never miss one.
API test results showing:
6 PH (possibly lower this is lowest on chart)
1 ammonia (down from 2-4 from water changes)
0 nitrates
0 nitrites
Have done some fiddling maybe month or 2 ago to get rid of green water algae. Mostly just more aggressive water change (40% instead of 25%), scrubbing the filter with aquarium water but i was careful with sponge!! I also added some more plants and changed up a few rocks. 3 weeks ago added new betta to replace on that died.

So, you can probably see from above my problem. All the fish look great and have great colours etc. That is, all apart from one platy that looks great but is spending a lot of time at the bottom. Not really coming up to eat but did so today, foraged a little bit, went back down again.... Only other thing is just lost 2 snails which i had for around 2 months. Wondered if 0 algae could be cause but not sure.... I read snails shouldnt starve in planted tank but they never seemed to go near plants. Only glass and rocks ..

So, i have used test strips for some time and in my ignorance I always thought fine as 0 on nitrates, nitrites, PH always very low but since fish were fine i was happy. Now I am reading up it is simply odd to me that i can never have detected nitrates in the past so how can be tank have ever been cycled .. Perhaps the test strips i used were rubbish but as you can see from new API kit, it seems to show this the case. Note i stopped using ammonia test strips when they ran out 4 months ago. Each time they showed 0.

So then i panic seeing this ammonia and 0 nitrates so either a crashed cycle or never had a cycle to begin with!!!

So, i have done 25% water changes each day for past 4 days. It has gone down from 2/4 to 1. Now, from my reading it seems possible that my ultra low PH + plants are some how allowing an uncycled tank to keep my fish alive by eating ammonia/keeping balance of NH4/NH3 on the side of harmless ammonium ? Otherwise i have no idea how i can possibly have this bright colourful fish for a full year. No nitrates mean tank never cycled and i never even had a colony of bacteria ... ???
So question is what to do now. If my low PH is in fact keeping fish alive by making ammonia harmless ammonium, i cant raise it. However, i need to raise it to get my tank to cycle right? Its sort of a catch 22.

I guess option1 is to try and cycle tank with this low PH over 4 weeks. Water changing if ammonia gets to 1+ , prime each day. A lot what i read suggests bacteria wont like PH this low and this might be even possible.

Or option2 is to used crushed coral or something to raise PH slowly, dose with prime and try to start a proper fish in cycle?

Or maybe option 3? Or maybe above is yet more ignorance? I cant be sure how long ammonia has be there as I havnt tested for it in many months.

 

[Essjay]

With that pH, all the ammonia will be in the non toxic form so you don't need to worry about that aspect. Ammonia in water exists in 2 forum, toxic ammonia and non toxic ammonium. The amount in each form depends on the temperature and pH. Our testers measure both ammonia and ammonium combined but there are calculators to work out how much is in each form. Using your data - 6.0 pH and 1.0 ppm ammonia, and assuming 25 deg C for the temp, your free ammonia is 0.0006 ppm which is significantly lower than the 0.05 'safe' limit. Even 4 ppm is below the 0.05 limit at 0.0023 ammonia.
However, a reading of 2 to 4 is not good even if it is all ammonium so we need to work out why it was so high before water changes.

Nitrate in tank water can be zero - mine is. If tap water nitrate is low (mine is 3 ppm) and the tank has a good number of plants, the plants will take up all the ammonia made by the fish and plants turn ammonia into protein not nitrite or nitrate. If your tap water nitrate is low and you have live plants, having zero in the tank does not mean the tank is not cycled.


You probably have very soft water as there are only a couple of areas in Scotland that don't. Platies are hard water fish and will suffer calcium depletion in soft water which stresses their bodies and stress makes fish more susceptible to disease. It is better to keep fish which need the same hardness as our water rather than alter the water to suit a species of fish. All the other fish you give are soft water, so they'll be fine in your tap water with no hardness changing things. Snails also need hard-ish water and pH over 7 for their shells. I would not add coral or anything else unless/until ammonia is zero, and even then you don't need to raise GH or pH too high for the rasboras, tetras etc.


I am at a loss from what you say to work out why the ammonia was so high.
Even if bacteria don't grow the plants should remove it. Can you tell us what plants you had, and what you have added recently, please?
Have you ever added any chemicals to the tank other than water conditioner (dechlorinator) or plant fertiliser?




However, there is something I do need to comment on.
Bettas are solitary fish which should really be kept alone. If this new betta also dies, please don't get another - or at least not for this tank. If you ever got another tank around 25 litres, that would be fine for a betta on its own
The harlequins, tetras and kuhli loach would all do better in groups of at least 10 of the same species, but the tank is too small for that.

 

[scotfishkeeper]

hi and thanks for your reply. Regarding the ammonia thing, I did remove a bit of decaying plant matter and one snail had been decaying there for few days. Some of the moss i added recently might be dying or just changed colour. Might remove that too. People i spoke to dont think that could be enough to create 2-4 though. Also, history is all messed up as i havnt tested in so long.

Regarding tank cycle, is it possible to have a tank for a year with this many fish and it not be cycled? I have not read anything like it in my research. Thing is i have used test strips many times (not understanding them) and have literally never recorded any nitrates and nitrites! I cant square that in my head knowing what i know now.

Plants are good amount but i thought they couldnt remove enough for this many fish but i could be wrong. I have added some algae removal stuff + quickclear + leaf zone in recent past. I stopped adding bacteria each week semi-recently and switched to API quickstart due to recent problems.

On your last point on betta. I read lots of different opinions on this and many say its down to individuals. My one shows no flaring and little interest in the other fish who ignore him too. My previous betta had 1 fin nipper who i rehomed. I respect your view though and will take into consideration. I also found out neon tetras better off in larger tank in larger numbers, despite their size. For future projects I have better knowledge on these things now.

PS something i didnt mention before. Our first fish in the tank were platys born in local fish store. They actually bred and we ended up with about 15 or so! I ended up giving all away apart from these two survivors which have spent their whole life in the tank. Not saying your wrong about the water thing but it did grow up in it. Having said that, i think tap water source is 6.8 and aquarium is 6 <. Therefore, it may have lowered recently thus causing problems. Still, those strips i dont trust always showed minimum PH. I just ordered GH/KH test kit to try to work out whats going on with that side of things ...

PPS just got some test stips in the post and they show 0 ammonia, 0 hardness, lowest PH... As if my brain wasnt frazzled enough. Its this product here https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09N3DJKFQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Not as fancy as the API by a mile but adds doubt for sure ...

 

[Essjay]

The tank should have cycled after that length of time, and yes, plants can remove all the ammonia unless it's just a moss ball and a small clump of java fern. Floating plants are the best for this as they are on the surface so very near the tank lights and can get CO2 from the air. I have quarantines new fish in somewhat overstocked circumstances with just a couple of new bunches of elodea and the surface covered with floating plants from my main tank, and I never see a trace of ammonia or nitrite.

If you want to to check the test kit with Scottish Water's expensive equipment for your tap water, they do give hardness on their website, though they don't make it easy to find. I can tell you how to find it is you want to read it. It will be interesting to compare your tap and tank water results.


You said you used to do 25 % water changes till you tested ammonia; how often did you do this? The reason I ask is because soft water usually also has low KH. This buffers the water against pH changes. When KH is very low it can get used up leaving nothing to stop pH falling. Things made in the tank, things in fish waste we don't test for as well as nitrate (which isn't there in your case) are acidic and with low KH if water changes aren't big enough or often enough to replenish KH, it can get used up. Back in the 1990s I was very lazy about water changes and my pH plummeted of the bottom of the scale. I asked on another site and was told to add stuff to increase KH as mine was 3 dKH, but instead I started doing weekly water changes (instead of monthly ) and I haven't had a pH drop since.


The algae removal stuff might possibly have caused the problem.
API Quick Start contains the right species of ammonia eaters but the wrong species of nitrite eaters. Since ammonia is the problem it should help with that, but keep an eye on nitrite as well just in case. If you use the whole bottle, look at Tetra Safe Start instead for the next purchase.

 

[scotfishkeeper]

nd yes, plants can remove all the ammonia unless it's just a moss ball and a small clump of java fern

Perhaps its possible the plants consume "too much" and prevent a colony from forming? That would explain lack of nitrates ever.

ou said you used to do 25 % water changes till you tested ammonia; how often did you do this?

Every week. Never missed it once in whole year.

API Quick Start contains the right species of ammonia eaters but the wrong species of nitrite eaters. Since ammonia is the problem it should help with that, but keep an eye on nitrite as well just in case. If you use the whole bottle, look at Tetra Safe Start instead for the next purchase.

Yeah i went a bit product mad. Ordered 2 different products including the tetra one. I still get the feeling i wont be able to start a colony though. low PH + plants. might prevent it. Ill see what my KH/GH say when i get the kit.

Im tempted to try raising PH while getting ammonia down to 0.5 + adding seachem prime every 1-2 days. This would allow a colony to start properly now i know how to monitor.

Before I do that I want others to test my water though. Those strips i bought have thrown me out and i want to make sure ammonia readings are not phantom.

 

[Byron]

I'm confused here. If you have live plants, they will likely keep nitrite and nitrate very low. What has Prime to do with it...answer, nothing. Prime onlyhides these things, they are still there. And you should never use Prime every day as some sort of tonic.

 

[scotfishkeeper]

Perhaps its possible the plants consume "too much" and prevent a colony from forming? That would explain lack of nitrates ever.


Every week. Never missed it once in whole year.



Yeah i went a bit product mad. Ordered 2 different products including the tetra one. I still get the feeling i wont be able to start a colony though. low PH + plants. might prevent it. Ill see what my KH/GH say when i get the kit.

Im tempted to try raising PH while getting ammonia down to 0.5 + adding seachem prime every 1-2 days. This would allow a colony to start properly now i know how to monitor.

Before I do that I want others to test my water though. Those strips i bought have thrown me out and i want to make sure ammonia readings are not phantom.

I'm confused here. If you have live plants, they will likely keep nitrite and nitrate very low. What has Prime to do with it...answer, nothing. Prime onlyhides these things, they are still there. And you should never use Prime every day as some sort of tonic.

All the guides online tell you to dose prime + do water change very with with ammonia until it reaches below 1ppm. More recently i discovered this ammonia is harmless due to my low PH but im stil doing it as part of my water change just to be sure i guess.

I dont think it will hide anything as the ammonia still shows up with prime.

PS i dont use this product in normal situations. I use a more basic water conditioner with my weekly change normally.

 

[Essjay]

The way to deal with ammonia is water changes - assuming your tap water ammonia is zero. Daily water changes till it's zero, then see what happens.
I cannot believe that it's not cycled after this time. Perhaps something happened to damage the bacteria colonies - but you've no nitrite and it's unlikely that one set of bacteria would be killed and not the other. And the plants should be taking up ammonia, they are faster at this than the bacteria.

If you don't already have any, can I suggest getting some floating plants. At the small end are red root floater and salvinia, through the larger Amazon frogbit and water lettuce to the biggest, water sprite. Not only are they very good at removing ammonia, the fish also like to have something over their heads.

 

[scotfishkeeper]

Got my GH/KH kit today so did full test. Found it quite fiddly but think its right. Not sure it makes sense for GH to be higher in tank though so might retest tomorrow.

source water
Ammonia = 0
ph 6.6-6.8
GH 2 drops = 35.8
KH = 2 or 3 = 35.8-53.7

Tank water
Ammonia = 0.25 - 0.5 (was 0.5 yesterday)
ph 6.0 <
GH 3 drops = 53.7
KH = 0/1

 

[Essjay]

The KH is lower in the tank water as it's being used up and this will allow the pH to drop.

GH could be something in the tank, but surely that would affect KH as well. Possibly the GH is borderline 2 to 3. I find the colour change tricky to see when only a couple of drops are added. The KH colour change is much easier.

With soft water it is easier to read GH and KH if you put the test tube on something white and look down into the tube between each drop. The extra depth makes the colour more intense.

 

[scotfishkeeper]

so the platy perked up a bit the past couple of days. Now, that may not mean much but something i have noticed.

With my water changes ammonia readings have done down as expected. Currently 0.25.

However, the PH stays yellow at bottom of scale and KH stays 0/1 bottom of scale.

This suggests to me the PH must be really low in the tank as water changes not makig a "visible impact" That is, lets say it was 4 and maybe now is a 5.5 or 6. Its been i think 4 days of 25% daily changes then a single 50% change. That should surely being it into the blue range i would have thought.

Im wondering if PH crashed so low the platy became miserable and the bacteria all died. There was actually quite a lot of dead plant material in the tank + the deal snails.

 

[Byron]

A few observations. First, you have very soft water, so none of what is occurring is in the least "strange." The GH and KH are buffers for the pH but here they cannot prevent the lowering of the pH. Regardless of what in the past may have done or not done to the pH, it is going to become more acidic. If you keep soft water fish species, that is absolutely fine.

Your platy is in trouble though, and it will not live long, or if it does, it will be continually plagued. Livebearers need moderately hard water. But you have soft water fish that do not want it higher.

Also, you have plants, and they grab the ammonia faster than the nitrifying bacteria. But all else considered, this is not a problem here. You do not need to be doing water changes beyond once a week, 50-60%. And Prime is not needed.