Panda problem

Lcc86 · Sep 5, 2023

Noticed one of my pandas not very active today, dorsal fin isn't as upright as my others and part of his tail is missing. I did a big water change but still wasn't happy with him. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate parameters were at 0 before the water change. Popped him into a very temporary tank so that i could take these pictures, I can get a better QT tank set up but don't have a small enough heater to go in with him. We are in a mini heatwave here (30°C) but not sure if I can keep him without a heater for long or if it's better to put him back in to the main tank if that's going to be an issue.

Can't see any obvious marks/spots/fungus etc on him so not sure what it could be. He is swimming fine when he needs to but very reluctant to move. His breathing seems faster and more laboured.

The third pic isn't great but that's what he was like in the main tank.

When I first got my pandas about 3 months ago one of them displayed similar behaviour right from purchase and died within a couple of days but the others have been fine since. I also have 5 julii cories which are fine.

I haven't fed any of my fish today as it was a scheduled fast day, should I try and feed him or leave him and see how he goes?

AlexT · Sep 5, 2023

Hope he recovers. You treat your fish with great care! Can't comment on the illness, but at least in the QT, aggressive water change is even easier. In the south UK over the next 5 days I doubt any external (water that's been sitting) indoors will get much below 76 or 78 F even at night.

The others can comment on QT and whether you should add some sand or cover for the little Panda and if he needs to be in QT. All the best!

Lcc86 · Sep 5, 2023

AlexT said:
Hope he recovers. You treat your fish with great care! Can't comment on the illness, but at least in the QT, aggressive water change is even easier. In the south UK over the next 5 days I doubt any external (water that's been sitting) indoors will get much below 76 or 78 F even at night.

The others can comment on QT and whether you should add some sand or cover for the little Panda and if he needs to be in QT. All the best!

Thank you that's very kind.

My flat is like an oven, I hate it! But least it helps with temps. I put some elodea in with him and covered with a kitchen towel to make sure he didn't jump out.

Naughts · Sep 5, 2023

In the absence of knowing what disease to treat I might be inclined to put it back in the main tank. The other cory dying when new suggests this could be a disease that was latent, but that will be in the tank regardless of current QT. The temperature won't be an issue just now but being without it's shoal may cause stress.

Lcc86 · Sep 5, 2023

Naughts said:
In the absence of knowing what disease to treat I might be inclined to put it back in the main tank. The other cory dying when new suggests this could be a disease that was latent, but that will be in the tank regardless of current QT. The temperature won't be an issue just now but being without it's shoal may cause stress.

That's what I was thinking re stress and whether it could make it worse. I have had a chance to have a good look at the fish in isolation though and there are no obvious signs of disease like ich or other fungal infection.

Could a disease remain to affect a fish so long after the other panda died?

Naughts · Sep 5, 2023

It's possible.
I had praecox rainbow that were diseased. Some got through quarantine as their symptoms didn't show in the first month and I have had similar deaths months afterwards, including a cory. The disease in my tank may be TB but I'm not sure.

Colin_T · Sep 5, 2023

Lcc86 said:
That's what I was thinking re stress and whether it could make it worse. I have had a chance to have a good look at the fish in isolation though and there are no obvious signs of disease like ich or other fungal infection.

Could a disease remain to affect a fish so long after the other panda died?

Yes, Fish Tuberculosis (TB) can take months or even years to kill a fish and it can kill one here and another one a few months later.

------------------

The fish has a bit of excess mucous on its left pectoral (side) fin and is missing the lower half of the caudal fin (tail). The rest of the body looks fine form the outside so there are two possibilities.
1. The fish got stuck under something and injured itself, or it got attacked by someone in the tank.
2. The fish has an internal problem.

Put the fish back in the tank and wait a few hours, then feed them. See if the fish eats. Monitor the fish and try to see what its poop looks like. If the fish eats then it's most likely caused by issue 1. If the fish doesn't eat then it has an internal problem.

When you move the fish, catch it in a net and keep it in the water. Put a small container under the net and lift the fish and net up and out. Keep the fish in the container of water and submerge the container in the main tank and let the fish swim out.

If the fish has an internal problem and you lift it out of the water, you can make it worse. Keeping the fish in water at all times reduces the stress on the internal organs.

Lcc86 · Sep 6, 2023

Ah I'll be gutted if it's TB as I know there's no cure :sad:

I'll feed them when the lights come on in a couple ofnhours and see if the affected one eats.

Lcc86 · Sep 6, 2023

Just fed them and put the food right next to him but he's not interested at all. Very lethargic and still breathing fast. He's paler than the others too - see pic for comparison.

I think it may be kindest to euthanise but am unsure how to do this.

Lcc86 · Sep 6, 2023

So looking into it I will try and get some clove oil from the pharmacist after work (am assuming this would be okay?). If I can't get any then unfortunately my only other option may be blunt force trauma which I REALLY don't want to do, but the fish is obviously suffering and I don't want to extend that.

AlexT · Sep 6, 2023

If it comes to this sorry, hope you are okay. I've had to euthanise fish without clove oil if it comes to it. Lets see what the others say to all this.

Colin_T · Sep 6, 2023

Yes euthanise it. Clove oil mixed with a small amount of alcohol and added to a small container of water that has the fish in. Continue adding clove oil a few drops at a time until the fish stops breathing. Then add a few more drops and put the container in the freezer until it's frozen solid. Bury the iceblock in the garden.

If you can't get clove oil, wrap the fish in a paper towel and put it on a hard surface and hit it on the head with a solid object. Then bury it and wash your hands and the blunt object with warm soapy water.

--------------------

Anesthesia of Fish, Amphibians and Wildlife

Fish Anesthesia Adequate oxygenation is necessary for maintenance of normal physiologic homeostasis during fish anesthesia. Oxygen should be supplied, via an air stone or similar device, to all water chambers used during transport, anesthesia and recovery. Ideally, water taken from the original...

www.research.psu.edu

https://ccac.ca/Documents/Standards/Guidelines/Add_PDFs/Fish_Anesthetics.pdf

Quote from the above link
Clove oil and derivatives Clove oil has recently been suggested as an alternative fish anesthetic. Clove oil is a pale yellow liquid derived from the leaves, buds and stem of the clove tree (Eugenia sp.). Its active ingredients are eugenol (4-allyl-2-methoxyphenol) and iso-eugenol (4-propenyl-2-methoxyphenol), which can comprise 90-95% of clove oil by weight.

Precautions:
Clove oil has been used for many years as a food additive and a topical analgesic in dentistry, and is recognized as a GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) substance by the US FDA for use in humans. TM25AQUI-S is a pharmaceutical derivative that contains 50% active ingredient and is registered for use with food fish in New Zealand and Australia with a nil withdrawal period. However, neither anesthetic is approved for use with fish in North America. Both substances are safe to handle, but as with all chemical anesthetics, contact with eyes and mucous membranes should be avoided.

Dosages:
Clove oil is most effective as an anesthetic at concentrations of 40-60 mg/L for salmonids, and should be dissolved in ethanol (e.g., 1:9) before mixing into the water. Clove oil has a slightly faster induction time and a longer recovery time than similar concentrations of TMS (Anderson et al., 1997; Keene et al., 1998). TM25AQUI-S can be dissolved directly into fresh or salt water, and has been shown to be effective at 20 mg/L for anaesthetizing juvenile chinook salmon (AQUI-S New Zealand Ltd., 2004). Both compounds have a wide margin of safety between effective and lethal doses, and fish do not show signs of distress when being anaesthetized.

Lcc86 · Sep 6, 2023

Colin_T said:
Yes euthanise it. Clove oil mixed with a small amount of alcohol and added to a small container of water that has the fish in. Continue adding clove oil a few drops at a time until the fish stops breathing. Then add a few more drops and put the container in the freezer until it's frozen solid. Bury the iceblock in the garden.

If you can't get clove oil, wrap the fish in a paper towel and put it on a hard surface and hit it on the head with a solid object. Then bury it and wash your hands and the blunt object with warm soapy water.

--------------------

Anesthesia of Fish, Amphibians and Wildlife

Fish Anesthesia Adequate oxygenation is necessary for maintenance of normal physiologic homeostasis during fish anesthesia. Oxygen should be supplied, via an air stone or similar device, to all water chambers used during transport, anesthesia and recovery. Ideally, water taken from the original...

www.research.psu.edu

https://ccac.ca/Documents/Standards/Guidelines/Add_PDFs/Fish_Anesthetics.pdf
Quote from the above link
Clove oil and derivatives Clove oil has recently been suggested as an alternative fish anesthetic. Clove oil is a pale yellow liquid derived from the leaves, buds and stem of the clove tree (Eugenia sp.). Its active ingredients are eugenol (4-allyl-2-methoxyphenol) and iso-eugenol (4-propenyl-2-methoxyphenol), which can comprise 90-95% of clove oil by weight.

Precautions:
Clove oil has been used for many years as a food additive and a topical analgesic in dentistry, and is recognized as a GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) substance by the US FDA for use in humans. TM25AQUI-S is a pharmaceutical derivative that contains 50% active ingredient and is registered for use with food fish in New Zealand and Australia with a nil withdrawal period. However, neither anesthetic is approved for use with fish in North America. Both substances are safe to handle, but as with all chemical anesthetics, contact with eyes and mucous membranes should be avoided.

Dosages:
Clove oil is most effective as an anesthetic at concentrations of 40-60 mg/L for salmonids, and should be dissolved in ethanol (e.g., 1:9) before mixing into the water. Clove oil has a slightly faster induction time and a longer recovery time than similar concentrations of TMS (Anderson et al., 1997; Keene et al., 1998). TM25AQUI-S can be dissolved directly into fresh or salt water, and has been shown to be effective at 20 mg/L for anaesthetizing juvenile chinook salmon (AQUI-S New Zealand Ltd., 2004). Both compounds have a wide margin of safety between effective and lethal doses, and fish do not show signs of distress when being anaesthetized.

Thanks, I just checked on him and breathing seems worse. I don't want to leave him to suffer, I'm going to run to my pharmacy now while I have a spare minute and hope they have clove oil.

Lcc86 · Sep 6, 2023

I followed your instructions @Colin_T, seemed to work. I took a picture just before I put the clove oil in just in case anyone can tell anything. All other fish seem bright, am just praying it isn't TB but only time will tell.

AlexT · Sep 6, 2023

Lcc86 said:
I followed your instructions @Colin_T, seemed to work. I took a picture just before I put the clove oil in just in case anyone can tell anything. All other fish seem bright, am just praying it isn't TB but only time will tell.

I think TB was mentioned more as an example of a disease that can inflict fish death at comparatively lengthy intervals. At least that's the impression I got from Colin's post.

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