Cycling Confusion

First , I'm doing the "Fish In Cycle" with the use of both Seachem's PRIME and STABILITY. I set up my 60 gallon tank and started with a very nice load of plants. Unfortunately I had to leave town for a week. On my return, I added 10 small Zebra Danios and 6 Mystery Snails for clean up. I will add alot more plants in the next few weeks. Secondly, I'm using an AQUACLEAR 110 with additional sponges and Bacteria Medium. My substraite is 3-6" of Eco Complete. Now to my question. After tessing for 5 days, with API's TEST KIT, my Ammonia remains at 0ppm, Nitrite levels are at 0ppm but my Nitrate levels have gone up from 5.0ppm to 10ppm now back to 5ppm. I've never seen any Ammonia or Nitrites. Does this sound like I'm on track for a cycle ? Any sugestions ? I plan to add more fish (Rummy Nose Tetras) a few at a time, per week over the next few months. And Thank You For Excepting Me to the forums.

Hello and welcome
I doubt that a tank can be cycled in a week, and I've not seen anyone support Stability as a quality bacteria starter.
What are the tap nitrate levels?
Did you use established filter media or substrate?
Can you post a picture of the tank to give an idea about the plant density?

Just so you know mystery snails won't "clean-up" your tank, you still need to manually clean it via water changes and gravel vacuuming. Yes, they will eat some leftovers, but they produce a lot of waste as a result of their scavenger diet. Like they poop A LOT, so if anything, they may make more of a mess for you to vacuum up during water changes.

Naught, I doubt that too. Thats why I posted here. My Ammonia and Nitrite has never appeared, both sitting at 0ppm. My Nitrate jumped from 5.0ppm to 10.0ppm then back to 5ppm. I test daily. No I didn't use estabished media or substrate. When I bought my plants, they were in the plastic baskets with a whitish materal around the roots. Soon after I bought them, I had to leave town for 7 days. Technically my tank has been running since Sept 1st. I didn't have time to plant them (in my ECO Complete). So all my plants sat in my tank for a week, undisturbed, fishless and snailess in their baskets. My guess was, there was benifical Bacteria on the plants and the media the roots were encased in. My Aqua Clear 110 has a pre-filter sponge on the intake, a coarse sponge, filter floss and the white bacteria media inside. I added 10 medium sizes Zebra Danios on my return and started with Seachem's PRIME CONDITIONER and STABILITY BENIFICAL BACTERIA as instructed. All 10 Zebras and my Mystery Snails are doing great. I now have detected a light algae film on the glass and plant grouth, well they're sending out runners and I consider that, that the plants are doing something. Thanx for your help and input. My tank is still in the dark/ night mode for a bit longer. When I get the lights on, I'll post a pic. Jerry

Valkyrie, I added the MYSTERY SNAILS because they did a great job on glass cleaning duty's on my 5gal Betta tank. I'm finding out they're just OK on my 60gal tank. I'm planning my tank vacuuming tomorrow (Sunday) and a 20% water change. I'll mess with the filter later in the week. Thanx for your input an help. Jerry

Jerry Sem said:

Valkyrie, I added the MYSTERY SNAILS because they did a great job on glass cleaning duty's on my 5gal Betta tank. I'm finding out they're just OK on my 60gal tank. I'm planning my tank vacuuming tomorrow (Sunday) and a 20% water change. I'll mess with the filter later in the week. Thanx for your input an help. Jerry

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I just wanted to make sure you were aware that they have a surprisingly high bioload, that's all. I'm not sure of your experience level, but some people who are newer to the hobby tend to think that mystery snails/other algae eaters will clean their tank for them (not just the glass). It sounds like you're not one of those people, but I wanted to point it out for anyone else reading the thread. This forum gets many views often from non-members.

No surprises here. First thing, is that ten small zebra danios plus the snails in 60 gallons will (or should) not have issues regardless. The plants will in any event take up all the ammonia these fish could produce, and a lot more. This explains the zero ammonia and nitrite. Some did get through to the bacteria, but not much, but that is no problem. You have now added more plants, even better. A photo of the tank would help assess just how far this might go; faster-growing plants use much more ammonia/ammonium than slow-growers.

The Prime is doing nothing beneficial. Neither is the Stability. Don't continue either. API's Tap Water Conditioner would be a better conditioner (for the fish). Prime actually harms plants by inhibiting the uptake of ammonia for its effective period, said to be 36 hours by Seachem. API does not have the chemical that causes this.

Byron- my understanding is that plants do not use ammonia as NH3 but use the ammonium (NH4). So Prime etc. doesn't inhibit the plants. However, the bacteria take up NH3 and the use of Prime will slow them down because they use NH4 less efficiently and that means more slowly. Also Seachem, in it's FAQ section states:

I tested my tap water after using Prime® and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine?

A: Prime® works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime® will not halt your cycling process.

I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our MultiTest™ Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime® dissipates from your system within 24 hours.

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from https://www.seachem.com/prime.php (red color added by me for emphasis )

SeaChem is correct that Prime will not halt the cycle, however, it will slow the cycle without doubt. The best dechlor to use during a fishless cycle is any which does not detox ammonia. But after a tank is cycled and one may have chloramine coming in should consider having a dechlor which does detox ammonia. Normally the amount of ammoia from breaking down chloriamine in a stocked tank will be so low that the bacteria will handle it. But it never hurts to be safe rather than sorry.

I always like to tell folks that no matter how many plants one has in a tank, you will still have some amount of the nitrifying bacteria present. However, one can have a tank with 0 plants and which relies 100% on bacteria for dealing with the nitrogen complex.

TwoTankAmin said:

Byron- my understanding is that plants do not use ammonia as NH3 but use the ammonium (NH4). So Prime etc. doesn't inhibit the plants. However, the bacteria take up NH3 and the use of Prime will slow them down because they use NH4 less efficiently and that means more slowly. Also Seachem, in it's FAQ section states:


from https://www.seachem.com/prime.php (red color added by me for emphasis )

SeaChem is correct that Prime will not halt the cycle, however, it will slow the cycle without doubt. The best dechlor to use during a fishless cycle is any which does not detox ammonia. But after a tank is cycled and one may have chloramine coming in should consider having a dechlor which does detox ammonia. Normally the amount of ammoia from breaking down chloriamine in a stocked tank will be so low that the bacteria will handle it. But it never hurts to be safe rather than sorry.

I always like to tell folks that no matter how many plants one has in a tank, you will still have some amount of the nitrifying bacteria present. However, one can have a tank with 0 plants and which relies 100% on bacteria for dealing with the nitrogen complex.

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I only know what Seachem stated in response to my question. I asked about their recommendation that Flourish not be added within 36 hours of using Prime, and they stated this was because Prime would negate the heavy metals that are nutrients and plants would not be able to use them. Even when prime is no longer effective, the nutrients were lost to the plants. API has said that this is not the case with their conditioner.

The heavy metals are not being remove by the ammonia detoxifier I believe, it is something else? SeaChem also tells us that both Prime and Excel are reducing agents and one needs to be careful when using both especially if one is overdosing either or both.

Also later one in the Prime FAQ they contrdict what I posted where they then say:

How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?

A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 48 hours.

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So it dissipates in 24 hours but it remains effective for 48? Does this make sense?

You can read about Prime, Excel and ORP here https://forum.seachem.com/forum/sunken-gardens/18914-dosing-excel-flourish-comprehensive-and-prime

In a low flow tank, we do not recommend that you dose those (Flourish Excel and Prime) directly following one another since they can both function as reducing agents. That said, it is not always an issue in all scenarios, but there may be potential for a reduction of oxygen.

Flourish and Flourish Excel do not have the same relationship and it is fine to dose these within moments of one another.

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There can be problems when dosing bother these things and one or both is being added in larger than the normal dose, I do not need dechlor but I still will only dose Excel at the rate of 3 ml/10gal of tank water. I do not use it as an algaecide ever.

And if you want to know the sort of "science" I do not trust:

A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime® (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime® they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

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Isn't it interesting that one needs to overdose prime for it to help with nitrite or nitrate? So one should buy more Prime right?

sorry it took so long but heres my plants ... so far

20 junjle vals plants this week

OK, those plants will easily assimilate the ammonia from 10 small danios in a 60g tank. So long as you do not see ammonia or nitrite above zero, you are fine. On a related aspect, have you tested the tap water on its own for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? The nitrate may be related to the tap water, maybe not, but it is worth knowing what is/is not in the source water.

Ok, I decided and also figured out at the same time, that I'm doing a "Planted Tank Cycle" I read in detail and re-read the "How to cycle" instructions several times. That read-me post was clear and now I understand the differences between the 3 main ways to cycle. I've always been about a heavly planted tank with a school of Rummy Nose Tetras. I would like to have as many as 16 -18 Rummy's, eventually. I've got about 1/3 of my planting done and am waiting on an order of Jungle Val, 30 plants this week. As mentioned in my orignal post, I have a 60gal tank that has been running since the 1st of September. I bought my first load of plants on September 3rd and had to leave them in their baskets in the water. I left the tank alone for 7 days, only using a timer for lighting. On the 12th of September I addad 10 small to medium Zebra Danios and began dosing with Seachem's PRIME and STABILITY. After reading these post here and the How To post, I mentioned above, I have altered that plan somewhat. So after 7 days of testing with API's Test Kit, my Ammonia and Nitrites are still at 0ppm and still haven't budged. I'm cool with that. My plants are growing and must be comsuming. My Nitrates bounce back and forth between 5.0ppm and 10ppm. Never any more. My tap water only has a Nitrate level of between 0ppm-5.0ppm. My testing tonight showed that it (my tank) was at 10.0ppm for Nitrates. I do plan on a vacuum job today (Monday) and doing a modest 10% water change in the process. I understand that the plants I have and the packings they came with had some Benifical Bacteria and I also understand I MUST add fish at a slower pace so that my plants and what colonys of Bacteria I do have can adjust and catch up to the new workload. My question is : At what pace can I add new residences. 3 a week, or 3 every 2 weeks or 6 every 2 weeks, well anyway you get the idea. Just looking for opinions. I probably won't add any fish this week, or at least until I get my Jungle Vals in. Let them settle in and test for another week just to be sure all parameters are stable. After that, and with 0ppm Ammonia, 0ppm Nitrite and 5.0-10.0 ppm of Nitrates test results, I'll start my Rummy Nose Tetras family with comfidence. Thought I'd include, that my substrait is ECO Complete and I have added API's LEAF ZONE once before fish to get the plants going and because they were in their baskets and not in the substrait during my absents. thanx Jerry

First comment, I forgot the Eco-complete, that is most likely the reason for the nitrate fluctuations. This in itself is not problematic, assuming nitrates fall back and basically remain below 10. If you have nitrate in the source water, that is going to be a constant but it is low enough not to cause issues. Just don't let the tank-occurring nitrates get higher. And a second word on eco-complete before you go to far into this...do not have substrate fish like cories or loaches over this substrate. It is first quite rough (may not seem to be in your hand, but I can assure you from sad personal experience it is), second the bacteria issue can be problematic for fish digging into the substrate. If these fish are not intended, fine, but if they are, now is the time to consider a different substrate, before more fish are involved.

Second comment, the one aspect of so-called "silent" or plant cycling concerns the number of fish that can be added. Shoaling fish must be added together, i.e., if you intend say 12 "x" species of tetras, they should all go in at the same time, together. This makes a huge difference in the fish settling in faster with much less chance of ich. This refers to entire species, not entire number of species. Some species may be hierarchial and this is even more significant. Once the plants are showing signs of growth, it is frankly impossible to add too many fish (assuming the numbers are not beyond what any tank that size could handle to begin with). It is all well and good to be over-cautious, but this aspect of numbers is one of themost important factors to fish well-being and health. Avoiding stress (by too few of the species) does cause stress, and as stress is the direct cause of over 90% of aquarium fish disease, it is significant to avoid stress.