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Confusion as to when 'cycling' is complete.

WhistlingBadger said:
@Byron's overview of major types of bacteria, shared above, is excellent. I believe that at some point he (perhaps it was someone else?) shared some specific information on the bacteria contained in various "instant cycle" cultures. I for one would love to see that again, if anyone can find it.
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I earlier tried to track down the article (by Dr. Hovanec) that provides his test results/observations on the "cycling" products, but couldn't seem to, so I can only go from memory here. I will have another search later today. But he stated that having tried I think five or six of these products, none contain the correct nitrifying bacteria, but some of them did tend to speed up the cycling process by a few days. He reasoned, if memory is serving me correctly, that it was the introduction of "bacteria" regardless of species/purpose that helped get the "cycle" started.

Only his product, Dr. Tim's One and Only, does instantly "cycle" a tank; he says this, and so far to my knowledge no scientific evidence has come forward to disprove this, and I am sure if it were not true someone would have been overjoyed to point it out, so one must conclude he is correct. His original formula (which is different bacteria from this product) was sold to Tetra and is available as their SafeStart. He does not, to the best of my knowledge, purport that this is an instant cycling additive, but it has been proven to help establish the cycling.

There is also the issue of archaea. This is something that I did not mention in my article (written a decade ago now), and it should be added. Evidence indicates that the nitrifying bacteria initially colonize a new tank, but very shortly thereafter these disappear and are actually replaced by archaea, a different group of single-cell organisms, certain species of which (at least in freshwater systems) carry out the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate.
 
WhistlingBadger said:
I can't tell whether you're trying to be funny, or just being intentionally obtuse here. If the former, :). If the latter, come on dude, it isn't that hard.

Edit: I'm not being snarky, though I'm afraid it sounded like it. I just don't quite understand why you keep bringing up the fresh-water-in-a-bucket scenario. I think we all agree that said bucket isn't cycled.
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No 'snark' detected and no, I'm not trying to be obtuse either.
You believe that you know what you're talking about and cannot grasp why anyone else couldn't understand what, to you and others, is simple common sense.

Perhaps its a 'use of words' thing...Part I

Just bear with me and forget all you know' about cycling.
Now read this, as your only source of info about cycling: "If you never see ammonia or nitrite in the water when there are fish in a tank, the tank is cycled. That's all cycling means."*
Granted, the word 'never' is there, but essentially, my point about my bucket remains. Of course said bucket isn't cycled...I know that. BUT I also believe that an absence of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, with fish in the water, is NOT all that cycling means.
During the cycling process, that happy state of affairs, with all zeroes**, may well occur...to change of its own accord sometime soon after.

(All of this would be so, so much easier, sat in a pub with a packet of pork scratchings and a few pints to hand).

Perhaps its a 'use of words' thing...Part II

Let me try this...
If I was to ask you to describe to me exactly how to fry an egg, you'd probably tell me to break the egg into the frying pan.
If I took you literally, then I'd do just that...break the whole egg into the pan, shell and all.
To describe in absolute detail exactly how to fry an egg, a relatively simple task, it would take pages and pages of notes and instructions.

I can accept that cycling a tank can be described as cultivating a sufficient bacterial population to manage fish waste.
BUT we also know that, during a tank's life span, that bacterial population may fall and we don't generally decribe that tank as becoming un-cycled. Likewise when excess waste overwhelms the bacteria.
We do, however, change the water, perhaps add some more bacteria, perhaps add more plants, etc., etc., until the water is back to how we want it. In essence, we have just cycled the tank again. (You could even say that it has been re-cycled! :D ).


*Nothing personal here...this is just a handy example of why there is some confusion. I could've picked other posts, but this was the most convenient.
**Yes, I know nitrates don't have to be at zero.
 
WhistlingBadger said:
That's why I said, "barring some catastrophe or huge change." If the filter gets messed up and the bacteria gets killed, then of course you'd need to cycle again. :) But assuming that all is well and your bacteria aren't getting killed off by well-meaning family members or toxic tap water, the cycle doesn't really need anything special to maintain it. The little critters just do their thing.

Regarding your second question, bio cultures vary widely. Some are quite good and some are completely useless. Generally, I'd say follow the directions on the bottle, then proceed with cycling your tank according to the info that's already been shared. Using a good starter culture is a bit like planting seeds in the garden, as opposed to simply waiting for the plants to show up naturally. Either way, you have to wait for them to grow.
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Lol right rofl I guess my brain is brainstorming all scenarios with this hobby lol

I’m using bio cult..the black bottle..but it doesn’t say in it’s fine fine print lol So usually about when I see a lot of slimy all over my filtration til I can’t stand it ..guessing around 6-8months or 1 yr plus tanks..I start to wonder if it’s okay I use none 😂🙈and maybe just back it off to adding to new water only and skip adding to tank but only once a month. How does that sound to you?? 😜..so I’ve only been adding to new water made and not so much in tank but once or twice a month. I have a fry tank ..bettas…15 weeks old so I’m afraid to stop using it. I just ran out of bio cult 🙈..but Amazon is late. The fry tank is about 2 yrs old but I had to restart it or recycled it..only took a couple weeks. I had move and everything dried out and died bc I couldn’t setup like I thought so it sat. It’s been running for 6 months this term.

But I feel guilty bc I don’t know what’s a good amount. I know I have a lot of it growing but what’s a safe amount for maintenance when you back off? My older tank like 2 yrs then I stop using it but only in new water made🙈. All my tanks filtration is pretty slimy but idk what is a good amount to use now. Oh and I’m guilty for having a heavy hand when I spill it in tank 😝🙈…I’ve been digging all over online but I can’t find answers. 4 drops per gallon but I tend to not be able to control it.
 
Oh, not new tank cycling here. Mine is grown. So do i need to use the bio cult anymore? Or just on new water prepared for water changes and maintenance? Can I cancel my subscriptions ?? Rofl
 
Once a tank is cycled, you don't need to add any more 'bottled bacteria' unless you manage to do something to kill the bacteria already there (some medications do this, for example; or adding water containing chlorine without using a water conditioner). Or have a sudden plant die off in a well planted tank. The tank already has the number of bacteria it needs so there's no need to add more. Some stores try to tell you that water changes remove the bacteria but as they live in the biofilm which is tightly bound to surfaces, that is not true.
 
Bruce Leyland-Jones said:
Now read this, as your only source of info about cycling: "If you never see ammonia or nitrite in the water when there are fish in a tank, the tank is cycled. That's all cycling means."*
Granted, the word 'never' is there, but essentially, my point about my bucket remains. Of course said bucket isn't cycled...I know that. BUT I also believe that an absence of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, with fish in the water, is NOT all that cycling means.
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Yes, someone said that, and if that is the only thing one ever reads about cycling, I can see the confusion. But of course, it isn't. Essjay made that comment in the context of a larger conversation. And in that larger conversation, we've already addressed the bucket scenario. We all agree that your bucket isn't cycled. We all agreed with that to begin with. So, I think we're good.
Bruce Leyland-Jones said:
(All of this would be so, so much easier, sat in a pub with a packet of pork scratchings and a few pints to hand).
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Agreed. Ha ha ha Although I believe that after one pint the conversation might get more difficult, not easier, to make sense out of. :)
Bruce Leyland-Jones said:
BUT we also know that, during a tank's life span, that bacterial population may fall and we don't generally decribe that tank as becoming un-cycled. Likewise when excess waste overwhelms the bacteria.
We do, however, change the water, perhaps add some more bacteria, perhaps add more plants, etc., etc., until the water is back to how we want it. In essence, we have just cycled the tank again. (You could even say that it has been re-cycled! :D ).
Click to expand...
If the bacteria fell to the point where detectable amounts of ammonia are in the water, most of us would indeed describe the tank as becoming uncycled ("losing the cycle" is a common way I've heard it said). At that point, we'd start over and re-cycle. But changing the water or adding more plants is not cycling, though it can have the same effect short-term. Cycling means establishing a colony of microbes that turns ammonia and nitrite into relatively harmless byproducts.
 
I totally get what Bruce is saying. I think this comes from people fundamentally misunderstanding what the nitrogen cycle is. It doesn't help that we all use "to cycle" as a verb; I do so myself. Unfortunately I am not sure what can be done. Explaining with more words might make it worse. This thread in itself seems to be confusing people.

Years ago, before testing at home and fishless cycling was a thing it was simpler. The nitrogen cycle was well understood as far back as the 80s or before. Under-gravel filtration was ridiculously popular at one point, and biological filtration was all they could do. All the books and magazines I used to buy in the 90s suggested stocking lvls based on surface area; I believe they based that UG filtration bioload capacity, though tended to imply it was about oxygen (which indirectly it was as oxygen limits bacteria populations).

Instructions for setting up a tank was exactly what we understand as a fish-in cycle.

The most common problems in fishkeeping were new tank syndrome, which was illness caused by ammonia and nitrite poisoning, and old tank syndrome, which was illness created by a gradual build-up of nitrate, other chemicals, and salt from tap water if you only topped up evaporation loss.

In both cases the treatment was water changes.
 
Myraan said:
It doesn't help that we all use "to cycle" as a verb; I do so myself.
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True. "to cycle" is shorthand for "to establish the nitrogen cycle in our tank." Not everyone understands that, and it would probably be good to re-explain that now and then. I guess that's kind of what Bruce was getting at. Also, a "cycled" tank could more properly be referred to as a "cycling" tank. Words do get in the way at times.

It was indeed simpler in the old days before we commoners understood the nitrogen cycle (though I think scientists have understood it to some degree for quite a long time). Back then, the process went sort of like this, in my experience: 1. Set up tank. 2. Add dechlorinator. 3. Let it run for 24 hours before adding fish, because that's what the booklet that came with the tank said to do. 3. Buy fish. 4. Why do the fish die? Huh. Weird. I did what the book said to do. 5. Occasionally a fish makes it longer than a month, and I feel like the Lord of All Fish Keepers.

:lol:

I like the modern way a lot better. ha ha
 
What follows is perhaps redundant but worth another read…
When We speak a cycle we're talking about the nitrogen cycle. This is where ammonia is converted into nitrites and nitrites is converted into nitrate. Ammonia is converted into nitrites by a bacteria called Nitrosomas. Nitrite is converted into nitrate I bacteria called Nitrospira.
Put very simply, a tank is cycled when there's sufficient beneficial bacteria in order to convert all of the ammonia and nitrite created by fish and plant waste.
So if we add sufficient bacteria, be it from a used sponge or from a bottled product, the tank could be sufficiently cycled in order to safely house livestock.
However, this is not to say that the tank is stable. In time the filter and substrate becomes enhanced with beneficial bacteria and in three to six months the tank would be considered to be established.

Perhaps the biggest confusion in the hobby is that bacteria lives in the water column. In fact the beneficial bacteria that we need in the aquarium affixes itself to solid surfaces. This may begin in the filter, but ultimately bacteria lives on and in the substrate as well as any hardscape in the tank. The bacteria creates a bio-slime not unlike a brown sludge.

Is very important in the new tank not to clean the filter to soon. This allows the bacteria to further develop and establish its home.

So instant cycle is possible if sufficient beneficial bacteria is introduced to the tank. However stability may take weeks or months. I invite the reader to review Cycling a New Aquarium. :)
 
Bruce Leyland-Jones said:
I've known about the Nitrogen Cycle and cycling tanks for a while and have always viewed it as creating a population of beneficial bacteria, that will then be able to help manage fish waste.
I've known it to be a time-consuming process, when starting from scratch and that measuring the levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in the water is an essential part of this process...with such readings indicating the progress of the cycling progress.
My preference has always been for fishless cycling, in a planted tank, so as not to stress the fish.

Note my comment about time consuming...whilst I've learned that we can now speed things up a little, by adding shop-bought, bottled bacteria, real cycling does take time to occur.
I've also always believed that, once cycled, for a tank to stay safely cycled, with the water remaining safe for fish, additions of fish to the tank needs to be done slowly, so as not to overwhelm the now-resident bacteria.

But within this forum, I've read from those considered to be experts, that once a tank is cycled, you can add all of your fish. Granted, this is usually accompanied by the caveat of water changes and continued monitoring of the water, but still...all of your intended fish can be added to a freshly cycled tank. Whilst I'll accept, albeit begrudgingly, that in some instances this can occur, I'd ask that just because we can, should we?

Another point that confused me was an insistence by another acknowledged expert was that a tank reading zero for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate must be cycled. I countered this and suggested by that statement, a bucket of tap water, with water conditioner, could then be described as 'cycled'. This was then countered by my bucket not containing fish and so it could not be described as cycled.
I have since kept fish in a bucket of fresh, conditioned, tapwater and it took many hours before I detected a trace of ammonia. Each measurement prior to this would have suggested that my bucket was 'cycled', even though it clearly wasn't.

To me, for a tank to be 'properly' cycled, it has to have achieved a state of biological balance and this balance has to be maintained over time. As soon as that balance is upset, then the cycle has been disrupted and would take careful management to be re-established.
A new tank needs to be cycled, but I'm struggling with the idea that a cycled tank is just that...cycled. As if the task of setting it up is now done and dusted.

Thoughts?
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Makes sense to me, all of what you say here. I’ve heard fish should be gradually introduced as well.
Amusing your comment re a bucket of ammonia free tap water could be considered cycled by some definitions. 😂😂😂
 
WhistlingBadger said:
Agreed. Ha ha ha Although I believe that after one pint the conversation might get more difficult, not easier, to make sense out of. :)
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Be worth a few pints and it should be video'd, so we can all see it sober on YouTube later on. :D
Bards would write sagas about it and we'd all become legend in the world of fishes.
 
JennySolano said:
Makes sense to me, all of what you say here. I’ve heard fish should be gradually introduced as well.
Amusing your comment re a bucket of ammonia free tap water could be considered cycled by some definitions. 😂😂😂
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Provided someone doesn't assume it to be the way to go. ;)
JennySolano said:
is that Shaun in your avatar? I love him.💕💕💕
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Naaaah...a cartoon of my own making...

Dirty Weekend.jpg
 
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