Yes! That’s fine.
Tetra safestart
- Thread starter Quin
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Registrian
New Member
Hi, I am the author of this article and I registered just to reply to this thread.
@Byron
Thank you for your comments. I have enormous respect for you, though I am more of a lurker rather than participant in online communities.
About the 14 days thing. First, let me just point out that I did in fact say in the article that you can change water if there's a spike.
Second, though I am experienced myself, I try to do extensive research before writing something (instead of simply following the status quo).
So Prime is likely neutralizing ammonia by temporarily changing it to ammonium. It also breaks down chloramine to chlorine and ammonia. The more chloramine you have in your tap water, the more release of ammonium you will experience. Chloramine contents obviously vary among water facilities and the aquarist should do their own research on their local authority.
Studies (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245802/) have suggested that ammonia-oxidizing bacteria feed on ammonia and not ammonium, or at least the oxidizing is greatly reduced when the substrate is ammonium. This leads to a slower establishment of the colony. In my understanding this is undesirable when you want to cycle a tank faster.
Since the effect of Prime is temporary the ammonium turns back into ammonium in about 24 hours.
This bumps up the ammonia content in the tank, and in my article I suggest doing a fish-in cycle.
Ok, before I continue I must make clear that Nitrosomonas is a genus of bacteria, which means there are different species of Nitrosomonas, and not just one.
Anyway, it is known that higher ammonia content stall the nitrogen cycle ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/25038971?seq=1). When I did more research I found other papers stating that in higher ammonia content the nitrosomonas "adjust" themselves and a species that can handle the high NH3 load establishes itself as the dominant one, outcompeting others.
After the spike subsides it takes time (days or even weeks) for the bacteria to adjust their dominant species again. This again slows down the cycle.
Often, during cycling an aquarium, the aquarist faces a sudden, unexpected spike. They rush to perform a water change using dechlorinates water etc.
Having to continuously dose Prime or Tetra SafeStart during cycling can be avoided by either using purified, remineralized water for water changes or having an already-dechlorinated batch of water laying around and ready to be used (I should, perhaps, add this to the article).
Hope this helps clarify my reasoning in the article!
P.S. - my intention never was to make things more complicated. I just try to explain them as detailed as possible, because I'm a firm believer that oversimplification is often the root of misunderstanding and misleading info. In my experience, oversimplification is one of the vices in this otherwise complicated hobby.
Regards,
Momchil
@Byron
Thank you for your comments. I have enormous respect for you, though I am more of a lurker rather than participant in online communities.
About the 14 days thing. First, let me just point out that I did in fact say in the article that you can change water if there's a spike.
Second, though I am experienced myself, I try to do extensive research before writing something (instead of simply following the status quo).
So Prime is likely neutralizing ammonia by temporarily changing it to ammonium. It also breaks down chloramine to chlorine and ammonia. The more chloramine you have in your tap water, the more release of ammonium you will experience. Chloramine contents obviously vary among water facilities and the aquarist should do their own research on their local authority.
Studies (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245802/) have suggested that ammonia-oxidizing bacteria feed on ammonia and not ammonium, or at least the oxidizing is greatly reduced when the substrate is ammonium. This leads to a slower establishment of the colony. In my understanding this is undesirable when you want to cycle a tank faster.
Since the effect of Prime is temporary the ammonium turns back into ammonium in about 24 hours.
This bumps up the ammonia content in the tank, and in my article I suggest doing a fish-in cycle.
Ok, before I continue I must make clear that Nitrosomonas is a genus of bacteria, which means there are different species of Nitrosomonas, and not just one.
Anyway, it is known that higher ammonia content stall the nitrogen cycle ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/25038971?seq=1). When I did more research I found other papers stating that in higher ammonia content the nitrosomonas "adjust" themselves and a species that can handle the high NH3 load establishes itself as the dominant one, outcompeting others.
After the spike subsides it takes time (days or even weeks) for the bacteria to adjust their dominant species again. This again slows down the cycle.
Often, during cycling an aquarium, the aquarist faces a sudden, unexpected spike. They rush to perform a water change using dechlorinates water etc.
Having to continuously dose Prime or Tetra SafeStart during cycling can be avoided by either using purified, remineralized water for water changes or having an already-dechlorinated batch of water laying around and ready to be used (I should, perhaps, add this to the article).
Hope this helps clarify my reasoning in the article!
P.S. - my intention never was to make things more complicated. I just try to explain them as detailed as possible, because I'm a firm believer that oversimplification is often the root of misunderstanding and misleading info. In my experience, oversimplification is one of the vices in this otherwise complicated hobby.
Regards,
Momchil
Momchil, thank you very much for posting. I completely agree with what you've said here. Fish present or not present does make the difference re the water changes, and I concur about the Prime risk and related points. Just to add, the pH and temperature affect all of this as well.
I personally would not use these products to "cycle" unless there are fish present, in which case I do believe the SafeStart can relieve/avoid problems. Live plants are still the safer method.
Cheers, Byron.
I personally would not use these products to "cycle" unless there are fish present, in which case I do believe the SafeStart can relieve/avoid problems. Live plants are still the safer method.
Cheers, Byron.
OP
OP
Quin
Fishaholic
Thank you so much for the addition, @Registrian
I understand now that seachem prime maybe should not be my first choice in dechlorinators, and will likely be looking for a different kind when this one runs out. Knowing this now, and that the ammonium will be returned to it's ammonia state after 24 hours, do you believe it is still recommended to continue as planned and add the safestart after the time is up?
Thank you for the clarification!
I understand now that seachem prime maybe should not be my first choice in dechlorinators, and will likely be looking for a different kind when this one runs out. Knowing this now, and that the ammonium will be returned to it's ammonia state after 24 hours, do you believe it is still recommended to continue as planned and add the safestart after the time is up?
Thank you for the clarification!
Registrian
New Member
@Byron,
Absolutely, especially floating plants (as you mentioned), which are no less than "nutrient sponges" in my experience.
Anyhow, I did cover the topic because there was demand from my reader base on this particular product comparison.
Thank you for the discussion. I'm glad that we got to clarify these things.
@Quin
Prime remains a fantastic dechlorinator nonetheless. Your only concerns with it would be during tank cycling.
The actual culprit here is not the dechlorinator but rather Chloramine.
I think, that the more appropriate angle of looking at this is what type of water you use for water changes.
You could, as I mentioned, set a bucket of water aside and dechlorinate it. After 24 hours you can add a little TSS+ to it and let the bacteria handle the residual ammonia in the bucket. This will act as your emergency supply of water for water changes during cycling.
Nevertheless floating aquarium plants are still an option if you like that approach. It's up to you, really.
Anyway, to your other question - it's ok to add TSS+ to tank 24 hours after dechlorination and proceed with the execution of the other steps. That's what I did. Since it's just the beginning of the cycle the fish you add after the bottled bacteria won't generate a whole lot of bioload to cause a spike. Do make sure you use small fish.
Anyway, in a fully cycled aquarium, the ammonia released from breaking down chloramine would be negligible for the already-established bacterial colony. Prime was my dechlorinator of choice when I used tap water for my tanks, if that matters.
Hope this helps!
Regars,
Momchil
Absolutely, especially floating plants (as you mentioned), which are no less than "nutrient sponges" in my experience.
Anyhow, I did cover the topic because there was demand from my reader base on this particular product comparison.
Thank you for the discussion. I'm glad that we got to clarify these things.
@Quin
Prime remains a fantastic dechlorinator nonetheless. Your only concerns with it would be during tank cycling.
The actual culprit here is not the dechlorinator but rather Chloramine.
I think, that the more appropriate angle of looking at this is what type of water you use for water changes.
You could, as I mentioned, set a bucket of water aside and dechlorinate it. After 24 hours you can add a little TSS+ to it and let the bacteria handle the residual ammonia in the bucket. This will act as your emergency supply of water for water changes during cycling.
Nevertheless floating aquarium plants are still an option if you like that approach. It's up to you, really.
Anyway, to your other question - it's ok to add TSS+ to tank 24 hours after dechlorination and proceed with the execution of the other steps. That's what I did. Since it's just the beginning of the cycle the fish you add after the bottled bacteria won't generate a whole lot of bioload to cause a spike. Do make sure you use small fish.
Anyway, in a fully cycled aquarium, the ammonia released from breaking down chloramine would be negligible for the already-established bacterial colony. Prime was my dechlorinator of choice when I used tap water for my tanks, if that matters.
Hope this helps!
Regars,
Momchil
OP
OP
Quin
Fishaholic
I believe Hank counts as a small fish! He is a male black orchid betta about the length of my pinkie with fins. He is the only fish that will be living in this tank. I can definitely keep a look out for a 5g bucket to keep supply of changed water in too, as that sounds lovely. My worry is the temperature of the bucket, as without a heater it will be subject to the fluctuations of our house. Would this kill the bacteria, or should I only prepare the bucket for the scheduled water changes to reduce waiting time.
My current water supply is tap water from a well with a water softener. When my water was tested, its baseline was perfect all except for pH levels, which were towards the basic end of a bettas tolerance. I am not using pH adjusters, but he was introduced to our water over the course of 4+ hours.
You did mention that the fish added after the bacteria won't add a spike. My betta is already in the tank and the TSS+ will be added at 4:30 after the 24 hr cycle is up. Should be be removed for an amount of time while the bacteria colony is setting itself up? Also, his eating habits have been odd so I don't believe he has contributed any ammonia to this tank yet aside from the amount that was transferred with his other plants to the new tank. Is this a concern for the setup of the colony?
Salty&Onion
Fish Aficionado
I don't trust it. I've a whole bottle and got a serious ammonia spike the next day after using it.
What type is the water softener? The kind that use salt should not be used for fish tanks because they replace the hardness minerals with sodium and this is not good for fish.
Do you have a bypass tap? That is the water which should be used for both drinking and fish tanks.
OP
OP
Quin
Fishaholic
We do have a bypass tap outside! I haven't used that to fill up his tank, but I'm sure I could use a hose to maneuver it into a bucket!
I am not sure exactly what water softener we have, but if there's something I can do to make the water healthier for Hank I want to do it. He is back to lying on his rocks mostly, like how he was before he was before I switched him to the bigger tank. Someone on tumblr said it might be his fin size, and I figured he was exhausted from not taking food, but if there's something wrong with his water quality I think it should he investigated
Edit: occasionally I don't get notifications for replies. Is it okay if you @ me just in case? I don't want to miss any vital information
@Quin There are a few different types of water softener, is it possible to find out which type yours is? Anything written on the softener equipment, or the manual which says what type it is?
I realise you are on a well so can't look on a water provider's website, but do you have your well water tested? If you do, do the test results include hardness?
I realise you are on a well so can't look on a water provider's website, but do you have your well water tested? If you do, do the test results include hardness?
OP
OP
Quin
Fishaholic
The attached file is the only thing I can find on our softener, I'm not sure if it helps.
Water testing for hardness has reliably produced around 0 GH and about 240 KH. As a side note, I tested the water just now to make sure and there still isn't a noticeable presence of nitrates or nitrites. Do you have any recommendations or warnings for brands of ammonia test strips and Tetra SafeStart online shipping wise?
Water testing for hardness has reliably produced around 0 GH and about 240 KH. As a side note, I tested the water just now to make sure and there still isn't a noticeable presence of nitrates or nitrites. Do you have any recommendations or warnings for brands of ammonia test strips and Tetra SafeStart online shipping wise?
Attachments
I will say this again, I don’t suggest getting test strips. They are highly inaccurate.
I suggest you get this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000255NCI/?tag=ff0d01-20
The API master freshwater test kit. It has over 809 individual tests, which is great for you. It tests for ph, high ph, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite. It is only $23, with prime. How much is in your budget? If your mom is willing to buy it for you, or help you buy it, this is great.
I know what you’re thinking, “Ugh, $23? I could spend it on so much more than jusa silly little test kit!”
And it is very common for people to think this. But, a test kit like this will last you a long time and help you our tremendously.
As for the tetra safe start, here is some in Amazon.com for a reasonable price:
Tetra Safe Start:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N26P856/?tag=ff0d01-20
Tetra Safe Start Plus:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002DZNP3E/?tag=ff0d01-20
OP
OP
Quin
Fishaholic
Thank you so much! Those TSS bottles are cheaper than they were in the store, and I believe @Byron had a glowing reccomendation for amazon's shopping methods. I will definitely be sourcing them online from now on.
I was reading through the test kit and noticed that one of their pictures showed the 5 in 1 test strips. These are the ones that I purchased that don't include ammonia reading. Are they still reliable? Picture included.
Additionally and probably the most pressing is water change. Today is the day, but I'm worried on how to go about it. I can dig through my threads to find the number (I believe 20%?) but when I do change the water, is it safe to replace it with water treated with the seachem prime immediately, or will it kill off my bacteria?
Attachments
I do not think they are likely to be way off, we have had other members who used them. As you have them, use them...they are useful for the GH and KH which is not included in the liquid Master Combo though once you know the source water GH/KH there is not really much need to test these parameters further if you are not adjusting your water parameters (RO, or similar). The ammonia is included in the liquid Master Combo, along with nitrite, nitrate and pH and going forward these are the tests you should have on hand.
Not sure what strip tests Phoenix used that were highly inaccurate? I have found API test strips (and Tetra) correlated with my liquid tests API, Salifert and Waterlife. Not much chance of user error either, as long as you look at the colours in decent light at the correct time. Just follow the directions on the pack.
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