No access to Co2

Byron said:

I'm close to you, in Maple Ridge, not that that matters, the advice is still the same.

First, do not ever use Excel in a tank with fish. Excel is glutaraldehyde and water, and glutaraldehyde is a highly toxic disinfectant used in hospitals to disinfect surgical instruments and kill bacteria. Other members have reported burns to their skin if Excel is splashed on their hand. Even at the dose recommended on the label, some plants (Vallisneria is particularly sensitive) will be killed. If you should happen to slightly overdose, this product can kill plants, fish and bacteria. It does not belong in a fish tank. Any additive that will do what it will do, and is known to kill some algae (though Seachem for obvious reasons play this down), is too great a risk. All substances added to the aquarium water get inside the fish by osmosis through every cell; the additives then enter the bloodstream and can be carried to internal organs and the delicate gills. Seachem may say this product is "safe" but they obviously define "safe" differently than I do; just because the fish do not turn belly-up does not mean the product is "safe," and over the long term I suspect the fish will have difficulties.

To the algae/CO2 issue. CO2 as one of 17 nutrients is (or must be) in balance with the rest, and all of them with the light. Intensity is key, assuming proper spectrum, and then duration. I've no idea what the balance now is, but presumably it was good. Without the CO2, you should lower the light/nutrients so they remain in balance with the natural CO2. CO2 is produced primarily in the substrate through the breakdown of organics, and secondarily from respiration of fish, plants and some bacteria species. It will obviously increase during darkness, and then be used during daylight (= when the tank light is on). So you may find lessening the duration of the tank lighting will deal with this, and also be careful not to add too many nutrients (fertilizers). Lessening both to lower the balance should work.

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Whistlerskipro said:

Ok just got home after a walk in the mountains, practicing social distancing. Wow that is some info to take in, not the latter part but on Flurish. Had no idea. I have in the past added a capful to my 75g and had no problems with my fish but still will never take that risk again. As for the second part my perimeters have always been ok however I’m using R/O water up here. I’ll begin by lowering the lighting straight away. As for frets. What about Seachem Equilibrium? I usually add 3/4 of a tbs when I do a 1/3 water change every other week. Appreciate this vital info. I’m sure I’ll be back in this site several times in the near future.
Cheers peter

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Byron said:

This needs another explanation, and more questions.

First, can you post your GH for the tank water? Equilibrium is intended for planted tanks to raise the GH which are the "hard" minerals calcium (primarily) and magnesium, plus it has iron, zinc, and a couple others I can't remember, but that doesn't matter. I used this for five years until a marine biologist asked me why, given what is in it and how it impacts fish [I'll come back to this]. However, there are nutrients missing from Equilibrium, and I am curious if you are adding anything else.

My issue with Equilbirum is that I have mostly wild caught very soft water fish species, so keeping the GH as close to zero is beneficial for them. I had a calcium deficiency (this shows up as largish brown blotches on leaves which is ironically an iron excess because the plants take up iron in place of calcium when the latter is insufficient, and use this for their leaf structure. Excess iron kills plants (and everything else) so the plants will slowly worsen and die, as mine were at the time. Equilbrium with calcium and magnesium solved this, and my GH was in the range of 4-6 dGH.

When I had a disease problem in one tank and had to consult one of my online biologist friends, her question and comments got me thinking and I decided to stop Equilibrium and use the Flourish Tabs more frequently, along with the liquid Flourish Comprehensive Supplement (I had been using the latter for years, but the calcium and magnesium is minimal because most people have this in their source water). This worked. Plants were just as thriving, GH remained zero, fish very happy, npow going on for five years. I use the Flourish Tabs as one next to each of the larger sword plants, replaced every three months. Flourish Comprehensive is added once weekly on the day after the water change.

On a related issue, is there a reason you are using RO water? I would assume Whistler water is much like mine, so curious.

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Whistlerskipro said:

Now one thing I noticed recently is the ph has been kinda low at 6.2 and I’ve brought it to 6.8 with proper Ph.

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Whistlerskipro said:

So unfortunately I can’t tell you my GH which I’m sure is not good. I’m judging everything is ok simply based on not loosing fish and plants looking fairly good. . In my tank I have large Rafael for 6 years now two large angle for 3-4 years 2 Siamese algie eaters plus 4 Cory and 15 tetras in a 75 Gal with two large canister filters. I started using RO water two years ago to battle what I thought at the time was high phos, which I now think were diatoms. Anyways it seemed to work and I’ve been using it ever since.

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Whistlerskipro said:

Now two weeks ago I noticed a little bit of black beard algie on some wood decorations which I treated with hydrogen peroxide out of the tank. I was lead to believe this was being caused by fluctuating C02 levels and as I’m out of C02 and I can not get any due to hardware store being closed, I’m worried this algie might become a problem. Today I noticed it came back on some java fern which I removed and took a picture for you. It is definitely not a problem now and I want to keep it this way.

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Byron said:

No, bad. Never use these concoctions with fish in the tank. This is just one more chemical getting inside the fish and doing no good, but adding more stress to the fish in dealing with it. I'll add a analogy here...when terrestrial animals including humans breathe, anything in the air is taken into the lungs. Some of this can end up in the bloodstream, but not everything. Fish have a very different issue; everything in the water immediately enter their bloodstream as a liquid. Think of it like injecting this stuff into your veins...not good.

CO2 usually lowers the pH, so now you are making things even worse for the fish because the CO2 is lowering the pH by creating carbonic acid, then you are adding chemicals to raise it...that is just more stress. And by the way, something else to keep in mind, there are studies now suggesting that diffused CO2 is harmful to fish over time. Since your unit is empty, this might be a good time to consider removing it. Might have to lower the light intensity, that's another issue. But there is more natural CO2 from the organic decomposition than many realize. I'm going to add a photo or two of my 70g tank a few years back when my camera was working better; I think there is fairly good plant growth but I have moderate light, no added CO2, and the Flourish Tabs and Comprehensive.

There is nothing wrong with a low pH if you have soft water species which you do. My tanks run below 5, or in the 5's or low 6's, depending upon the tank. Livebearers would not last in this, nor the soft water (low GH), but soft water fish are designed for such water.



When using Equilibrium which increases GH you should have a test kit (the API liquid GH/KH test kit is good) to keep tabs on the GH. It only needs to be at 4 dGH for plants to be OK, and this certainly will not harm the fish here. But the up/down GH is not a good thing long-term, and there is no point having it higher than necessary. For these fish, anything in the 4-8 dGH range is OK but it should be constant.



Algae is caused by an imbalance in the light/nutrient ratio, nothing more. So if things were in balance, and suddenly one nutrient like CO2 is insufficient to maintain that balance, algae will take advantage. BTW, those plants are not Java Fern, they are various sword plants (Echinodorus sp.), all three of them. And the black brush/beard algae is likely being caused by the light intensity which is now greater than the balance was. So as I suggested previously, reducing the light should help. Intensity seems uncontrollable, though floating plants can help with this; duration can be cut back and depending upon everything else might do the trick.

I have battled BBA a few times over the last 25-30 years, and always got it under control by adjusting the balance. Sometimes I had to reduce the light period, some times it was blocking out the increased daylight in summer, sometimes reducing the Flourish liquid, a couple timmes replacing the tubes which were no longer bright enough. All about the balance.

This can go back and forth a bit, as it is essential to ensure every facet is covered.

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1. If you have a air pump and air stone. This will add some CO2 which can help prevent zero CO2.
2. If you don't have a air pump try adjusting the water outflow from the filter. The more surface agitation you get the the better. If you can arrange the outflow so that the water falls though the air and into the tank. This will drag air into the tank in for form a bubbles that will be pushed the by the water into the tank. The more bubbles you get the more stable CO2 a d O2 levels will be in the tank.

StevenF said:

There are 2 things you can do to compensate for no CO2 until you can get your bottle refilled.

1. If you have a air pump and air stone. This will add some CO2 which can help prevent zero CO2.
2. If you don't have a air pump try adjusting the water outflow from the filter. The more surface agitation you get the the better. If you can arrange the outflow so that the water falls though the air and into the tank. This will drag air into the tank in for form a bubbles that will be pushed the by the water into the tank. The more bubbles you get the more stable CO2 a d O2 levels will be in the tank.

Simple aeration of the water will put more CO2 into the water than most people realize. So the more bubbles of air you get into the tank the better and the smaller the bubbles the better.

After you do that you probably will have to adjust your light brightness to prevent the plants from consuming all the CO2 in the tank. in my RO water tank if CO2 flow is insufficient PH will increase. I suspect your tank will do the same. When CO2 levels are stable the PH is stable. So measure the water PH just before the lights come on. then monitor the pH thought the day. if the PH is stable you are fine. If the PH starts to increase you either need to increase tank aeration or dime the lightsto slow the plant growth rate.

Once your get your CO2 tank is refilled I would also buy a second tank and get it filled. That way in the future you will have a backup tank available. Another thing you can due is to use less CO2 by using it more efficiently. The current guidelines for determining how much CO2 you have in the water is to use a drop checker or adjust the CO2 for a 1 point PH drop. Both of these methods result in more CO2 int the tank than is in the air. Additionally drop checkers cannot detect CO2 consentrations at atmospheric levels.

One methode of getting CO2 in a tank is called the inverted bottle method. In this method a bottle is place in the tank upside down without air in it. The the bottle is filled with CO2 from a hose about once or twice a day. CO2 will then flow from the bottle to the water and then eventually out to the air. This method Keeps CO2 levels in equilibrium with the air. and in my limited experience with it you end up using a lot less CO2. This method also eliminates the possibility of getting to much CO2 in the tank and killing the fish (which has happpened to a lot of people including myself).

The loss of CO2 could cause algae but my experience with BBA is that it is more common in Tanks with CO2 injections. I strongly believe BBAit is cased by a imbalance of CO2 to O2. If you have too much organic waste in the substrate or filter bacteria will feed on the organics and O2 and increase CO2. Or a nutrient deficiency in your water could slow plant growth leading to a O2 drop and trigger BBA.

In regards to GH boosters they are needed in RO water tanks. Plants and animals need calcium and magnesium which are ht only 2 elements the GH test detects. Most fertilizers don't have calcium and those that do have it simple don't have enough for plants. Plants need more magnesium that Phosphate (Phosphorous) and more calcium is needed than magnesium. The only nutrients that plants need more of than Ca and MG are Nitrogen or Potassium. So the macro nutrients plants need are N, K, Ca, Mg, P, S, and CL. S is sulfur and Cl is chlorine. Most people and manufactured fertlizers use Potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. So that takes care of NPK nutrients but then you can get a Ca, Mg, S, and Cl deficiency. In my RO tanks I mix my own GH booster consisting of Magnesium sulfate, and calcium chloride. for each part of Mg in it there are 3 parts Ca. This recipe insures I have enough Ca, Mg, S, and Cl for my plants. These are safe for fish and plants. and many people use them. Don't mix potassium nitrate or potassium phosphate with Calcium. Doing so willl cause a chemical reaction that will probably cause calcium phosphate to settle to the bottom of the bottle.

Equilibrium is more of a traditional recipe that in addition to Ca, Mg, and S also includes Potassium, iron sulfate and Manganese sulfate. Most fertilize have enough potassium so your GH booster doesn't need it. Any good fertilizer is going to have iron and magnesium. So there is no need for the additional K, Fe, and Mn. Additionally unlike plants animals need sodium to live. In fact not having Sodium in a tank and too much potassium in the tank can be fatal to animals.

I can dose my Gh booster to very low levels (1 or 2 degrees) but at that low level is it is possible to run out of C, Mg, S, or Cl. So I prefer to maintain about 3 degrees but it is not necessary keep it at exactly 3 degrees. If you are concerned about having too much you can treat it as a fertilizer and dose only the amount need for 1 week.

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