Angelfish Dying Overnight! Please help

civilalloy · May 15, 2018

I have had three different angelfish die in the past week or so. There are no physical signs of injury, disease, etc. in the first two. The third, which we found dead this morning, had a very slight bulge on his side. I'm assuming right around where the swim bladder is? We have another angelfish, who is slightly older (who I'm now beginning to worry about), in a different tank, that does not have this bulge on her side, and I do not believe the first two had this bulge either. This is the information I have on the three that died:

All three were not much bigger than a quarter. We bought all three from Petco, although we got one from one Petco, and the other two from a different Petco. The first one lived for maybe two weeks in the tank, the other two lived for about a week. The first one we got was in the tank for a few days before we got the other two, and survived a few days after they died. All three died on different days. Every time, they seemed fine the night before, and were dead in the morning, with the exception of the second one. When we woke up, he was definitely not doing well. He was having a hard time swimming around. For lack of a better term, watching him try to swim was like watching a very drunk person trying to walk. Only this was sad because it was apparent that he was on his way out.

The tank is 20 gallons. There's about two inches of black gravel for live plants. There are a few live plants, and a carpeting aquatic grass as well.

Tank mates are as follows:
2 Baloon Mollies
6 Neon Tetras
1 Clown Loach
1 Ghost Shrimp
3 Angelfish (now deceased)
1 Female Betta (moved to a different tank the night before the second angelfish died)

As far as I can tell, the water should be fine. I'm at work so I don't have a test in front of me, I can post it later, but from what I remember, PH is about 6.8 and Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites are all 0.

Water is kept at 78 degrees F.

The tank was not cycled at all before I added the first few fish, (I'm new to this hobby, and no one at Petco told me anything about this), but it was certainly cycled before I added the angelfish. Tank had been running about a month before I added the angelfish.

Does anyone have any clue as to what might have happened to my angelfish? No other fish in the tank have had any problems at all, but neither did the angelfish until we found them and it was too late. Please let me know if there's other information I need to post.

mikey11 · May 15, 2018

a 20 gallon tank is too small for even one angelfish

seangee · May 15, 2018

FWIW a 20 gallon is way to small for one clown loach, and they need to be in a group of at least 6.

Colin_T · May 15, 2018

Can you post a picture of the other angelfish and if any more act weird, then post a short video of them swimming funny.

Test the tank water when you get home and let us know what the pH, ammonia, nitrite & nitrate are.

How big is the other angelfish, the older one you have had for a while?

What did you feed the fish before they died?

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the tank when you do water changes?
When was the last time you did a water change and gravel clean?
Do you use tap water and if yes, is it dechlorinated before you add it to the tank?
Do you have buckets used specifically for the fish or do you use any bucket in the house?

What type of filter is on the tank and when did you last clean it and how did you clean it?

IHaveADogToo · May 15, 2018

I'm sorry that your angelfish keep dying. That has to be scary, and frustrating!

If it's been less than 14 days, and you have the receipt, Petco will refund your money. Oftentimes fish from these pet stores are sick well before you buy them, but don't show symptoms until you get them home. These chain pet stores know they sell sick fish all the time, so that is why they offer that 14 day policy. Although, they may insist that you bring a water sample from your tank for them to test, and you definitely have to bring them the dead fish. This is also why people suggest you quarantine new fish in a temporary holding tank for 2-4 weeks before adding them to established tanks with other fish in them.

I don't think we can rule out your tank as the cause of death, though, sadly. As several people before me have said, your tank is too small for even a single angelfish, let alone several. The additional bioload (waste) from these angels may be causing ammonia to spike, and in turn, poisoning the fish. In a tank too small for them, the filtration may be unable to keep up with the bioload. How often do you change the water? Have you been doing water changes after finding dead fish? A dead fish body will also release ammonia into the water, so when you do find a dead fish you should immediately remove the body and change a large amount of the tank water. Ammonia aside, the size of the tank alone could be stressing the angelfish to death.

I would advise you to not put angelfish in this tank. Remove any surviving angelfish, and return them to the store, along with the ones who have died. And never put a betta and angelfish together. I'm glad to see you removed the betta from this mix. Not only are bettas bad tank mates for angelfish, but they're bad with mollies, too.

civilalloy · May 15, 2018

Colin_T said:
Can you post a picture of the other angelfish and if any more act weird, then post a short video of them swimming funny.

Test the tank water when you get home and let us know what the pH, ammonia, nitrite & nitrate are.

How big is the other angelfish, the older one you have had for a while?

What did you feed the fish before they died?

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
Do you gravel clean the tank when you do water changes?
When was the last time you did a water change and gravel clean?
Do you use tap water and if yes, is it dechlorinated before you add it to the tank?
Do you have buckets used specifically for the fish or do you use any bucket in the house?

What type of filter is on the tank and when did you last clean it and how did you clean it?

IHaveADogToo said:
I'm sorry that your angelfish keep dying. That has to be scary, and frustrating!

If it's been less than 14 days, and you have the receipt, Petco will refund your money. Oftentimes fish from these pet stores are sick well before you buy them, but don't show symptoms until you get them home. These chain pet stores know they sell sick fish all the time, so that is why they offer that 14 day policy. Although, they may insist that you bring a water sample from your tank for them to test, and you definitely have to bring them the dead fish. This is also why people suggest you quarantine new fish in a temporary holding tank for 2-4 weeks before adding them to established tanks with other fish in them.

I don't think we can rule out your tank as the cause of death, though, sadly. As several people before me have said, your tank is too small for even a single angelfish, let alone several. The additional bioload (waste) from these angels may be causing ammonia to spike, and in turn, poisoning the fish. In a tank too small for them, the filtration may be unable to keep up with the bioload. How often do you change the water? Have you been doing water changes after finding dead fish? A dead fish body will also release ammonia into the water, so when you do find a dead fish you should immediately remove the body and change a large amount of the tank water. Ammonia aside, the size of the tank alone could be stressing the angelfish to death.

I would advise you to not put angelfish in this tank. Remove any surviving angelfish, and return them to the store, along with the ones who have died. And never put a betta and angelfish together. I'm glad to see you removed the betta from this mix. Not only are bettas bad tank mates for angelfish, but they're bad with mollies, too.

I will definitely not be adding more angelfish to this tank. I have one remaining angelfish. But she has been in a separate tank this whole time. She's a little bigger than the others I had (about half the size of my palm), and she's in a 30 gallon column tank. There's a couple tetras and a couple mollies and a rubber lip pleco (who will eventually get a bigger tank), but that's it. Would this be too small for her also? She seems happy. When I first brought her home she was a little reclusive. But now that she's settled in she right comes up to the front of the tank to greet me when I come by.

Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites were definitely all at 0. However I was in a rush on my way to work this morning and was not able to do another test after removing the last angelfish from my 20gal, will do an update in probably two hours when I get home.

I have not done a gravel cleaning, because my tank is almost completely carpeted in grass. What options do I have for this? Should I remove the carpeting grass?

I did a water change the night before I found the first dead angel. I forgot to mention two guppies in the tank as well. One of them was clamping her tail fin, and really didn't look too happy. I tested the water and PH was a little low (6.4 if memory serves), so I did a 25% water change. The guppy was happy in the morning, but sadly, this was when I found the first dead angel.

I use dechlorinated tap water for my tanks. I have actually tested and my strips do not show a reading at all for chlorine in water straight from the tap. I understand that these are not the MOST accurate tests, and will be getting a better kit soon, but I still dechlorinate the water just in case. Are there any dangers to adding more dechlorinator than I need to?

I had about half of these fish a 10gal before I realized I needed to go bigger, and they were in a bucket for a couple hours. I bought three 5gal buckets from home depot and rinsed thoroughly with water several times before putting fish in them, and they will never have anything in them other than fish and are set aside specifically for any emergencies that may arise.

Also I unfortunately do not have any photos or videos of the angels, at least not ones that would help. Just a couple from when I first added them to the tank.

EDIT: Forgot to mention they've been eating Top Fin tropical fish flakes.

IHaveADogToo · May 15, 2018

Yes, there are dangers to using too much dechlorinator. That stuff is super concentrated, and I've seen gill and skin irritation on fish from using too much. Follow the directions exactly. Adding more "just to be safe" can be dangerous. A little bit goes a long way.

If your test strips are saying there's no chlorine in your tap water, I would stop trusting those strips. There is chlorine in most tap water, and it does need to be treated. There is also likely chloramine in your tap water, which you probably don't have a test kit for. A dechlorinator will take care of both.

No, you don't need to uproot your grass carpet to clean the gravel. Just hover the gravel vac slightly above the grass. High enough to not suck up the grass, but low enough to where it still sucks up the gunk between the grass blades. I know you won't get all of the debris. The grass itself will help process a good amount of the waste, so it will help. But think of the grass as secondary, and you performing routine cleanings as primary. What kind of grass is it? Is it a short grass, like dwarf hairgrass, or something longer? I know PetSmart carries this one grass that can reach 18 inches, but they also carry dwarf hairgrass, which grows to like 3 inches max. I have both kinds (one kind in one tank, and the other in a different tank) and I've found that I can actually touch the grass with my gravel vac and it doesn't uproot.

Byron · May 15, 2018

I am not going to speculate/guess on the angelfish issue as it could be one of several things. But there are some other issues here that need addressing, moving forward.

You asked about the one angelfish in a columnar 30 gallon...that is OK but no more angelfish. Angelfish are by nature shoaling fish that live in small groups; but this requires a much larger tank, and there are other issues I won't get into; I wouldn't normally suggest one angelfish but as you already have it...

The clown loach must be returned or given away. This is also a shoaling fish, and a highly social fish that must have a group of at least five. But as they grow to a foot in length, this also means a very much larger tank. Left alone the loach will almost certainly bee highly stressed, which means poor health and likely aggressiveness to other fish. [It could have attacked the angelfish, possible but I am not saying it did.]

Mollies need much harder water than this would seem to be; also a basic (above 7) pH. An acidic pH is usually soft water though not always, but this seems likely here given the way the pH lowers. You should re-home the mollies, and the guppies for that matter. All livebearers require moderately hard water for important minerals. You can check the GH (general or total hardness) with your municipal water authority, on their website perhaps. No point in a test kit (unless you have one already) for GH as once you know the source water, you work with that.

I agree with the info in post #7 so won't repeat.

civilalloy · May 15, 2018

IHaveADogToo said:
Yes, there are dangers to using too much dechlorinator. That stuff is super concentrated, and I've seen gill and skin irritation on fish from using too much. Follow the directions exactly. Adding more "just to be safe" can be dangerous. A little bit goes a long way.

If your test strips are saying there's no chlorine in your tap water, I would stop trusting those strips. There is chlorine in most tap water, and it does need to be treated. There is also likely chloramine in your tap water, which you probably don't have a test kit for. A dechlorinator will take care of both.

No, you don't need to uproot your grass carpet to clean the gravel. Just hover the gravel vac slightly above the grass. High enough to not suck up the grass, but low enough to where it still sucks up the gunk between the grass blades. I know you won't get all of the debris. The grass itself will help process a good amount of the waste, so it will help. But think of the grass as secondary, and you performing routine cleanings as primary. What kind of grass is it? Is it a short grass, like dwarf hairgrass, or something longer? I know PetSmart carries this one grass that can reach 18 inches, but they also carry dwarf hairgrass, which grows to like 3 inches max. I have both kinds (one kind in one tank, and the other in a different tank) and I've found that I can actually touch the grass with my gravel vac and it doesn't uproot.

PH = 7.0
Ammonia = 1ppm
Nitrate = 0ppm
Nitrite = 1ppm

Also some other parameters on my test strips:

Carbonate = 80ppm
Total Alkalinity = 80ppm
General Hardness (CACO3, ppm) = 0
Free Chlorine = 0ppm

So it does appear there was a nitrite and ammonia spike. Most likely from the angelfish death I assume?

I've just noticed my yellow guppy tail clamping again. I'll be doing a water change shortly.

I got my grass here. It's not quite as luscious as the picture, but it's something along those lines. It is very easily uprooted, there's a cluster of it floating at the top of the tank, and it's getting a little bigger every day. I think I'll definitely give the gravel vac a go. I'd rather have safe water than a pretty green carpet

IHaveADogToo · May 15, 2018

Wow that is a vague plant description on amazon. It doesn’t even name the plant you’re buying. The people in the reviews don’t even know what it’s called. And it comes as seeds that you have to plant in the aquarium and grow long before you fill it with water, according to the reviews. I can see why it’s easily uprooted. Especially if you use gravel. Do you use gravel or sand?

Regarding the ammonia and nitrites, those numbers look to me like your tank is still cycling, not like it’s completed it’s cycle. Ammonia converts to nitrites converts to nitrates. In a cycled tank you will get ammonia and nitrite readings of 0. But there should be nitrates present. How long has the tank been running? I know you said you didn’t get to cycle it before adding fish, but it sounded like that was weeks ago? How long has it been exactly? No judgement. It will just help us figure out if you have a stalled or crashed cycle. Water changes can stall a cycle, but you have to do them when you have fish in the tank to keep them healthy. If you’re certain the cycle was completed, and somehow now you’re getting these readings that would indicate a crash, and we could look at reasons why that may have happened, but unless the tank has been running for at least a few months, that’s not likely. I’d keep an eye on the nitrite and nitrate levels, and keep ammonia as close to 0 as possible with frequent water changes. Nitrites should rise and then eventually nitrates will start registering and nitrites will start to drop. When you start seeing nitrates you’re in the final phase of the cycle.

@Byron is right. Angelfish need lots of room and need each other’s company. If these needs aren’t filled the fish will not live a happy healthy life. And the clown loach, yeah that is a beautiful fish, but it too needs a shoal, and they get really big.

Tbh clowns and angels are probably a good mix. Just not until you get to like 100 gallons, because of their shoaling needs and size full grown.

Colin_T · May 15, 2018

Three baby angelfish will be fine in an 80 litre (20gallon) tank for quite some time and tank size is not what killed them.

Can you post a picture of the guppy with the clamped tail?

Only feed the fish once every second day for the next few weeks until things settle down.

Don't do 25% water changes, small water changes are useless. Do a 75% water change and move your gravel cleaner over the plants to suck up any gunk. Do this every day for the next week. Then do a 75% water change any day you get an ammonia or nitrite reading, or if any fish ever die or look sick. And when the filters have settled then do a 50-75% water change each week. Make sure you use a gravel cleaner any time you do a water change.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the aquarium.

If you have exposed areas of gravel (without plants) then push the gravel cleaner into the gravel and suck the gunk out.

------------------------
Rotting fish poop in or on the gravel will lead to protozoan infections and that could be why the guppy has a clamped tail, and may be why the angels died. Big water changes dilute nutrients and disease organisms much more effectively than small water changes.

Low pH and low general hardness (GH) can also lead to problems with livebearers like guppies, platies, swordtails & mollies. However, don't muck about with pH until things settle down.
------------------------
You can double dose most water conditioners/ dechlorinators without any problems. However, you don't want to get too carried away and squirt half a bottle into the tank. Some dechlorinators only contain Sodium Thiosulphate and you can double or even triple dose without any issues. Other dechlorinators contain things like Aloe Vera and all sorts of weird things that can cause problems if you add excessive amounts. But normal or double dosing dechlorinators will not cause problems, and a lot of dechlorinators recommend a single dose for chlorine and a double dose for chloramine.

If you are in America you probably have chloramine and a chlorine test kit might not pick that up. A way to test for chloramine in tap water is to get a sample of tap water and test it for ammonia. It should show 0 ammonia. Then add a drop of dechlorinator to another sample of tap water and shake it up for a minute. Test that sample for ammonia, if it shows ammonia then you have chloramine.

-------------------------

civilalloy said:
Carbonate = 80ppm
Total Alkalinity = 80ppm
General Hardness (CACO3, ppm) = 0

Can you tell us what test kits you have for these 3 tests?

civilalloy · May 16, 2018

IHaveADogToo said:
Wow that is a vague plant description on amazon. It doesn’t even name the plant you’re buying. The people in the reviews don’t even know what it’s called. And it comes as seeds that you have to plant in the aquarium and grow long before you fill it with water, according to the reviews. I can see why it’s easily uprooted. Especially if you use gravel. Do you use gravel or sand?

Regarding the ammonia and nitrites, those numbers look to me like your tank is still cycling, not like it’s completed it’s cycle. Ammonia converts to nitrites converts to nitrates. In a cycled tank you will get ammonia and nitrite readings of 0. But there should be nitrates present. How long has the tank been running? I know you said you didn’t get to cycle it before adding fish, but it sounded like that was weeks ago? How long has it been exactly? No judgement. It will just help us figure out if you have a stalled or crashed cycle. Water changes can stall a cycle, but you have to do them when you have fish in the tank to keep them healthy. If you’re certain the cycle was completed, and somehow now you’re getting these readings that would indicate a crash, and we could look at reasons why that may have happened, but unless the tank has been running for at least a few months, that’s not likely. I’d keep an eye on the nitrite and nitrate levels, and keep ammonia as close to 0 as possible with frequent water changes. Nitrites should rise and then eventually nitrates will start registering and nitrites will start to drop. When you start seeing nitrates you’re in the final phase of the cycle.

@Byron is right. Angelfish need lots of room and need each other’s company. If these needs aren’t filled the fish will not live a happy healthy life. And the clown loach, yeah that is a beautiful fish, but it too needs a shoal, and they get really big.

Tbh clowns and angels are probably a good mix. Just not until you get to like 100 gallons, because of their shoaling needs and size full grown.

Thanks for your continued help and advice.

Yeah I'm beginning to think that that specific grass might not have been the wisest purchase for my aquarium. Although it does not seem to be causing any problem, I definitely won't be buying an aquarium plant without the exact name again. I have Flourite Black (by Seachem) in this tank. I bought the Flourite Black Sand from LFS for when it was just a 10gal. When I moved everything over, I ordered some more on Amazon, which just turned out to be the gravel version. Funny enough, after reading the back of the Flourite Black gravel packaging, it suggests putting down sand first, and then a layer of gravel. I feel like I kind of lucked out there.

The LFS I bought the gravel from seems much more knowledgable than the average Petco or Petsmart. This is where I first really learned about tank cycling. I definitely believe (after some extra research last night as well), that the tank was not fully cycled, despite what Petco told me when I took some water in to be tested. From a business standpoint that probably doesn't view these animals as living things that can suffer, rather just sees them as a SKU number, I somewhat get it. I know when you run a business, you have to make money, but it just leaves the end user sad and disappointed. I digress... I really thought that more time had passed than really had. After looking at some receipts last night, there was definitely not enough time for the tank to have fully cycled. Maybe not even by now. I had been adding a bacterial supplement with each water change. I was using Top Fin's bacteria supplement, but ran out. Now I'm using Seachem's Stability.

Could this have been what killed my angelfish? Even though ammonia and nitrites have been reading 0ppm until yesterday? I've been testing almost obsessively and this is the first time it's shown anything.

I believe I will definitely be finding a new home for my clown loach. He's so beautiful, but now that I know what you guys have been telling me, I've been able to notice that he's not as social as when I first got him. He darted around the tank non stop for several days when I first got him, but now he hides in the shadow just underneath the airstone (tubing was about 1 inch short so it hangs just above the gravel), and only comes out to graze.

Byron · May 16, 2018

Sorry to bring bad news, but if you have Flourite substrate, you should not consider any substrate fish, thinking of cories. The loach will be in trouble too, but you are re-homing it. I had Flourite Black in my 70g and had to remove the cories after it nearly shredded some of their mouths and barbels. I moved them to play sand and they are still with me, after five years, though they look a bit odd with no barbels and half a mouth on some of them.

If you do intend substrate fish, you should re-think the Flourite. Play sand is very safe and inexpensive, and plants will grow just as well. That is another thing about Flourite...it does not benefit plants much if at all.

civilalloy · May 16, 2018

Colin_T said:
Three baby angelfish will be fine in an 80 litre (20gallon) tank for quite some time and tank size is not what killed them.

Can you post a picture of the guppy with the clamped tail?

Only feed the fish once every second day for the next few weeks until things settle down.

Don't do 25% water changes, small water changes are useless. Do a 75% water change and move your gravel cleaner over the plants to suck up any gunk. Do this every day for the next week. Then do a 75% water change any day you get an ammonia or nitrite reading, or if any fish ever die or look sick. And when the filters have settled then do a 50-75% water change each week. Make sure you use a gravel cleaner any time you do a water change.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the aquarium.

If you have exposed areas of gravel (without plants) then push the gravel cleaner into the gravel and suck the gunk out.

------------------------
Rotting fish poop in or on the gravel will lead to protozoan infections and that could be why the guppy has a clamped tail, and may be why the angels died. Big water changes dilute nutrients and disease organisms much more effectively than small water changes.

Low pH and low general hardness (GH) can also lead to problems with livebearers like guppies, platies, swordtails & mollies. However, don't muck about with pH until things settle down.
------------------------
You can double dose most water conditioners/ dechlorinators without any problems. However, you don't want to get too carried away and squirt half a bottle into the tank. Some dechlorinators only contain Sodium Thiosulphate and you can double or even triple dose without any issues. Other dechlorinators contain things like Aloe Vera and all sorts of weird things that can cause problems if you add excessive amounts. But normal or double dosing dechlorinators will not cause problems, and a lot of dechlorinators recommend a single dose for chlorine and a double dose for chloramine.

If you are in America you probably have chloramine and a chlorine test kit might not pick that up. A way to test for chloramine in tap water is to get a sample of tap water and test it for ammonia. It should show 0 ammonia. Then add a drop of dechlorinator to another sample of tap water and shake it up for a minute. Test that sample for ammonia, if it shows ammonia then you have chloramine.

-------------------------

Can you tell us what test kits you have for these 3 tests?

I'll be cleaning the gravel shortly.

Thank you for the continued help and advice.

My tank setup. I have also recently added a couple water lily bulbs and some java moss. The larger plants seemed to go into shock shortly after bringing them home and lost all their leaves, but they're growing back now.

My two guppies (and one of my baloon mollies, who is responsible for uprooting the grass that's floating at the top of the tank!). The yellow one is the one who I've seen tail clamping on two occasions. She seems fine this morning. I think she may be pregnant, so I really want to make sure she's not stressed. I also know for a fact the black one is pregnant as well.

I did notice on the label for Seachem's Stablity, it says there is no danger in overdosing. I'm still going to be careful with everything though.

These are the test strips I use:

API Ammonia test strips for ammonia
JNW Direct 7-in-1 for everything else (I got these on Amazon)

civilalloy · May 16, 2018

Byron said:
Sorry to bring bad news, but if you have Flourite substrate, you should not consider any substrate fish, thinking of cories. The loach will be in trouble too, but you are re-homing it. I had Flourite Black in my 70g and had to remove the cories after it nearly shredded some of their mouths and barbels. I moved them to play sand and they are still with me, after five years, though they look a bit odd with no barbels and half a mouth on some of them.

If you do intend substrate fish, you should re-think the Flourite. Play sand is very safe and inexpensive, and plants will grow just as well. That is another thing about Flourite...it does not benefit plants much if at all.

That's good to know, and definitely adds a sense of urgency to the re-homing process.Thank you.

Search

Search

Angelfish Dying Overnight! Please help

civilalloy

New Member

mikey11

Fish Crazy

seangee

Fish Connoisseur

Colin_T

Fish Guru

IHaveADogToo

Fish Crazy

civilalloy

New Member

IHaveADogToo

Fish Crazy

Byron

Supporting Member

civilalloy

New Member

IHaveADogToo

Fish Crazy

Colin_T

Fish Guru

civilalloy

New Member

Byron

Supporting Member

civilalloy

New Member

civilalloy

New Member

Similar threads

Most reactions

Useful Links