Which Fish To Stock?

I have a 180L Juwel Rio tank, currently stocked with:

2 x Kribensis (male & female pair)
1 x Blue Gourami
1 x Gold Gourami
1 x T. Ellioti
10 x Neon Tetra

I was thinking of getting some bottom feeders, like some loach or catfish
but don't want anything too big and don't want to overstock.
I have seen some Chain Botia at my LFS and I quite like them.

My questions are, what else could I look into?
and
How much more stocking could I do?

Personally, I think the tank is too small for the T. ellioti and for two Trichogaster trichopterus: the first grows large and will probably end up eating the neons, the later can be quite aggressive, which can get worse with age.

Do you have sand? If you do, 10 dwarf chain loaches would go well. Corys also do best with sand, 10 of one species would also work. If you have gravel, then a small (adult size of 4-6") pleco would probably be best choice. I do not know how compatible these are will the T. ellioti, and pleco is most compatible with a breeding pair of kribs.

As for whether the tank can take the fish, I do not have enough information about the set-up to even start thinking about that.

Thanks for the reply.
What other information can I provide to help with the second question?

jjjjayr said:

What other information can I provide to help with the second question?

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What are the dimensions of the tank? Is it planted? What are the water parameters? How long has it been running for? What did you last add fish and how many? Have you ever experienced any ammonia or nitrite problems? If yes, when and why? What other decor do you have? What filter do you run? What media do you use in the filter? What maintenance do you preform? ..just to name a few with those, a rough guess would be possible. A photo would also help.

jjjjayr said:

Thanks for the reply.
What other information can I provide to help with the second question?

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Kat is reffering to more detail on the tanks history i think.

She'll likely need to know for when she comes back;

How long the tank has been running
What equipment you have kepping the tank ticking over, and (possibly) any additives used recently.
Plants. Species and how many (These can have a profound affect on processiong the bioload)


It might also be handy to know if anything (live or otherwise) has been added in the last few weeks.

She may need more, i doubt the above is exhaustive!

and

EDIT: Awesome timing Kat! Posts within 3 minutes!

Okay, Ill give you as much detail as I can,

The tank dimensions are 101L x 50H x 41W cm
It has been running since mid June.
I use a very fine gravel.
I did a fish-in cycle, the Ammonia and Nitrites spiked and I struggled to get them down with the fish in, so I re-homed them and used filter media and gravel from a cycled tank to lower these. This was approx 3-4 weeks ago. Water has been testing fine since.
The tank is supplied with integrated filter kit, which is driven by the Bioflow 600. I also have a small Aquael internal filter still in the tank which I used to help reduce the toxic load.
The tank is planted with 5 various plants. 4 of which were recently added and 4 Moss balls. The bogwood was only added yesterday and the Blue rock has been in the tank from the start.
Other equiptment in use is a 200W heater and a Tetra-tec APS 300 Air Pump.

FIlter sponge set up = 1 x COMPACT FINE SPONGE (blue)
1 x COMPACT COARSE FOAM (Blue)
1 x COMPACT WOOL PADS (WHITE)
1 X COMPACT NITRAX FOAM (GREEN)
1 X COMPACT CARBON SPONGES (BLACK)
1 x COMPACK CIRAX
I also placed a Fluvel Ammonia removal filter bag in the filter system during my ammonia issues, yet to be removed.
I use a syphon to sift through the fine gravel to clean it, ensuring any unearthed wasted is syphoned too. This also completes a 20-30L water change, with which the replacement water is traeted with API Stress Coat+.
I have also treated the tank with API Stress Zyme and TetraPlant to feed the plants.

Photo attached as requested.

Any advise or recommendations are welcome.

Thank you for your help.

:doh: take out the ammonia remover - thats cheating really. you wont need the carbon either

if you have ammonia problems you are either overstocked or not cycled

jjjjayr said:

The tank dimensions are 101L x 50H x 41W cm
It has been running since mid June.

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I would be edging towards "you're already fully stocked with the species you have in a tank that size": even though at the moment the fish are young, they will still grow larger and then will take up a noticeable amount of your stoking space.

jjjjayr said:

I use a very fine gravel.

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Pleco would be a better choice then.

jjjjayr said:

I did a fish-in cycle, the Ammonia and Nitrites spiked and I struggled to get them down with the fish in, so I re-homed them and used filter media and gravel from a cycled tank to lower these. This was approx 3-4 weeks ago. Water has been testing fine since.

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As long as you have any ammonia removing media in the filter, I would consider the filter uncycled.. the carbon sponge can be just left, but you shouldn't think of it as "carbon" anymore, as all the carbon has long since been used up, just treat it like a normal sponge.

jjjjayr said:

The tank is planted with 5 various plants. 4 of which were recently added and 4 Moss balls. The bogwood was only added yesterday and the Blue rock has been in the tank from the start.

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If you can count the individual plants, then it is not enough to make a difference to the number of fish one can keep. By the way, that's Mopani wood, not bogwood if it starts growing a fungus, take the wood out and wash it off under the tap.

jjjjayr said:

The tank is supplied with integrated filter kit, which is driven by the Bioflow 600. I also have a small Aquael internal filter still in the tank which I used to help reduce the toxic load. […] Other equiptment in use is a 200W heater and a Tetra-tec APS 300 Air Pump.

FIlter sponge set up = 1 x COMPACT FINE SPONGE (blue)
1 x COMPACT COARSE FOAM (Blue)
1 x COMPACT WOOL PADS (WHITE)
1 X COMPACT NITRAX FOAM (GREEN)
1 X COMPACT CARBON SPONGES (BLACK)
1 x COMPACK CIRAX
I also placed a Fluvel Ammonia removal filter bag in the filter system during my ammonia issues, yet to be removed.

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The "cirax" is what we call "bio media", which is has a high surface area designed for the bacteria to live on. Bacteria also live on the sponges, but those don't have as high a surface area. If possible, it might be worth replacing the green and black sponges with more of the "cirax" at some point in the distant future.

jjjjayr said:

I use a syphon to sift through the fine gravel to clean it, ensuring any unearthed wasted is syphoned too. This also completes a 20-30L water change, with which the replacement water is traeted with API Stress Coat+.

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So that's what.. 10-15% weekly water change? A bit on the low side for growing fish.. but ok for the current stock once it is adult. How are the nitrate readings?

jjjjayr said:

I have also treated the tank with API Stress Zyme and TetraPlant to feed the plants.

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The StressZyme probably won't have any effect at all, and you shouldn't be using fertiliser with so few plants, it is likely to encourage algae for you. Also, some fertilisers are ammonia based.

Blubble37 said:

:doh: take out the ammonia remover - thats cheating really. you wont need the carbon either

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If there are still ammonia problem, this will bring on a relapse, so it would be better to leave the bag in for at least a few more weeks, as the filter should start taking over once it is used up.. hopefully it will be a gradual change.

So! With the set-up you currently have, I would not recommend more fish because of the adult size and bio-load of the T. ellioti. Without the Elliot's cichlid, you could have up to 3 small plecos, depending on species and sex.

To increase the potential number of fish you can have, you can slowly replace a couple of the sponges with more "bio media" boxes and add more plants. If you do this, I would recommend that you increase the neons up to 20 in total (but keep in mind what I said about the T. ellioti not being compatible with them).

Not sure I would trust a pair of Kribs with any other bottom dwellers in a 180l. Kribs are like psychotic livebearers, in that they will breed and anything that comes within ~6 inches of the fry need to be robust. Kribs are reknowned for attacking delicate corydoras mercilessly, including pecking their eyes out.

Wow, Quality help and information. Thanks KittyKat and everybody else of coarse.

The Nitrate readings a zero btw.

I will increase the water change to 25% Would this be okay?

Would I be better off removing some of the blue rock to the right hand side of the tank and replacing with plants? If yes, what are the major benefits of this?

The bloke in the LFS store said T.Ellioti would be okay with the tetras once they are fully grown maybe I should change them to a larger breed of tetra. Or would a larger group of neons put the ellioti off trying them for dinner.

When would you recommend changing the filter media to the bio media boxes. would 1 a month for the next couple of months be okay?

jjjjayr said:

The Nitrate readings a zero btw.

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It will rise once the nitrate absorbing sponge is used up, that is normal and the plants will need it.

jjjjayr said:

I will increase the water change to 25% Would this be okay?

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Should be fine..

jjjjayr said:

Would I be better off removing some of the blue rock to the right hand side of the tank and replacing with plants? If yes, what are the major benefits of this?

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Even without touching the stones, there is a lot of space for plants at the back and on the left side. I consider the plants to have the following benefits: make fish feel more secure, provide *some* food when you're on holiday, use up nitrate and ammonium, help with a more stable pH.

jjjjayr said:

The bloke in the LFS store said T.Ellioti would be okay with the tetras once they are fully grown maybe I should change them to a larger breed of tetra. Or would a larger group of neons put the ellioti off trying them for dinner.

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That still wouldn't help with the fact that the tank is too small for a fully grown ellioti, did the bloke explain to you that the fish is capable of growing to 6-7", nose to base of tail? Small tetras, like neons, are easy dinner. A larger group of neons would make the neons happier, but it won't affect whether the ellioti tries to eat them or not. If you do not believe me about adult size, first 10 results from Google should, on average, come up with that.. but of course, there will be some which are ##152### too
Basically, any fish which fits into the mouth of another fish will be eaten.

jjjjayr said:

When would you recommend changing the filter media to the bio media boxes. would 1 a month for the next couple of months be okay?

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Probably change one sponge for ceramic media in 2-3 months, and another 2 months after that.

I can vouch for the fact that T. Ellioti can also be quite an aggressive fish as well, we keep ours in a cichlid tank and he's at the top of the pecking order, and gives our electric blue Jack Dempsey a run for his money, so be careful with it.

The chap at the LFS said that the ellioti would only get to 4-5 inches. But I've always wondered how much experience do the LFS staff know about adult fish. After all the sell pretty much all their fish when they are young.

jjjjayr said:

The chap at the LFS said that the ellioti would only get to 4-5 inches. But I've always wondered how much experience do the LFS staff know about adult fish. After all the sell pretty much all their fish when they are young.

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For the most part, in my experience, they know very little or nothing about the fish. The rest are often hobbyists like us, so they know *some*. As the animal's owner, it is your responsibility to know about the species before you buy it. If you see something you like, I suggest you write down the scientific name, then go home and research. Come back for the actual fish another time.