Sudden Deadly Parasites/ich/fungus/molds?

Here's the sequence of events:

-I had a mature, stable aquarium of mostly livebearers along with a few neon tetras.

-The tank had to be moved, so in the process I scrubbed it down really good (it had algae growths because I was at college and my parents were maintaining it; I only used water though of course and no soaps of any kind), filtered as much out of the gravel as I could while draining it, and let the new water sit for several hours with the filter running before I added the old fish (and of course I used dechlorination).

-I kept nine male guppies and the three neons and gave the other livebearers away so I could try some different species. I also gave away the two mollies because I was going to keep cories and knew they couldn't have salt and the mollies needed it to be healthy.

-Everyone did great, their colors looked better than before, no signs of stress at all, etc.


-Over a period of time I added three dwarf neon rainbowfish [praecox], two cories, two khuli loaches, and finally four new neons. I also added plants along the way as I didn't have any except some anacharis.

-When I added the neons, three of the four died within the first three days. I had also noticed one of my own neons was getting old and his spine was crooked; I called him my scoliosis neon. Since they were old I wasn't surprised when he died also. I was upset about the three new ones and tried to get a refund [they only had a 48 hr. policy unfortunately] but knew that sometimes new fish just aren't healthy. I wasn't too worried.

-I bought four more neons, to bring their numbers to a comfortable seven. The next morning, those were all alive but my previously healthy female rainbowfish and two neons were gone. Three in one night, no apparent reason. I looked the female over and she didn't have any visible signs of illness; fins were intact, color was fine, no ich, no wounds.

-This alarmed me so much that I took my water in to two different pet stores, bought a new thermometer, bought an ammonia continuous montitor type gadget that hangs in the tank, and used my own test strips which measure hardness and pH. Everything told me what I already had known: our water is fairly hard, pH was right at neutral, ammonia was non-existant, nitrates and nitrites were where they should be, temperature was perfect (about 79F). No apparent problems.

-I already spend a lot of time (probably upwards of 30 minutes) a day watching my fish: enjoying their asthetic beauty but also checking everyone for any signs of illness or stress. Everyone's colors are fantastic; better than when I bought them or when they were in the tank before (depending on whether they are old or newer fish), active, everyone eats fantastically, no bickering to speak of, no excessively shy fish. The only one that hid away much was one particular old neon.

-This morning, I observed one or two tiny white dots on several of the neons. Recognizing it as ich, I grabbed my meds for it. I also saw a male guppy whose tale was clamped shut, an obvious sign of stress, and the bottom half was white which it wasn't before. I dosed the tank (I don't know the name of the chemicals in the meds but it does turn the water blue for a short time) and double checked all my readings. Everything as far as water quality goes was fine so I had to go to work for an eleven hour shift.

-By the time I got home, there were so many troubling developments! The algae disk I dropped for my cories and khuli's (they love those!) had a tall clear 'mold' on it; probably a full quarter of an inch. One of the remaining praecox rainbowfish has this horrible white patch near his tale [but still on his body, not fins]; it's like he was bleached more than like he was covered, because you can still see individual scales and stuff, it's just much lighter and it looks so sad. Dad says it seems like it's from the inside more than like something growing on him. The afflicted guppy now has only pitiful rays instead of a tail and looks very ill. The lonely neon died. One of the khuli's has some clear hair-like growths; the same thing that is on the algae pellet, it looks like. There are more clear hairs on the rocks and some of the plants.

-Again of course all water parameters are fine. We used a magnifying glass to check out the algae pellets and there doesn't appear to be heads like there are on hydras which was my first guess. It's just like hairs; a dense growth of clear hairs. Same as on the khuli. Dad got a good look at the rainbowfish through the magnifying glass and said there are no filiments, hairs, puffiness, anything external at all as far as he can see. Just discoloration and it looks to me like his scales are raised.

-I dosed the tank again with the medicine. It says on the bottle to use half as much for tetras as for other fish, so originally I did the smaller dosage. It's supposed to be daily. I decided to do the half dose every 12 hours in hopes that it will kill the parasites and not the tetras.



I'm at a loss because I don't see how ich, 'mold', fin rot, and whatever the rainbowfish has are related, and they appeared virtually overnight, and all my fish are dying! I'm do distraught. It seems like there must be something wrong that is lowering all the immunities and allowing fungus/parasites to flourish, maybe? but I can't imagine what because like I said my water quality is seemingly perfect and I know these diseases haven't been visible for a long time because I keep a very attentive eye on my precious fish.


Any help at all would be so much appreciated....




PS I almost forgot: I know to take out carbon filters when using medication, but I have an unground filter and no carbon. Should I unplug the motorhead anyway? I'm afraid the lack of filtration would do more harm than good since I didn't know if it affects the medication or not. Let me know...

Size of tank in gallons or litres.
How many fish and which type.
Can you post water stats please.


How old was the neon that died with a bent spine, A bent spine can be old age, vitamin deficiency, fish tb, internal parasites, injury.


Any excess slime on the fish body or gills.
White bleacning beneath the skin can be columnaris.

I would buy a internal filter for you tank sixe, and run it in your tanks till its cycled, the rip the under gravel filter out.

29 gallons (US)
At the moment, 6 neon tetras, 1 praecox, 2 cories (one is on her way out), 1 or 2 khuli's (can't find one), 6 guppies.
Water stats will have to come later when I can grab the numbers since I'm on my way out the door, but I know pH was 6.8-7.0 or 7.2, hardness was at the top of normal, ammonia 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates in the middle of normal (did I get those two straight?). Temp 79F.

No slime visible.



Today, the ill praecox and ill guppy are dead, a cory is not moving except breathing [normally quite the busybody], havent' had time to see for sure if the ill khuli is dead or hiding, a new (young) neon is hiding.



Help? /

Sorry I missed the whitespot.
Are you still treating. If so what med have you used.
Did you raise temp and increase aeration.

The neons that died there red stripe didn't look bleached out did it.

I dont want to hijack your thread but last sunday I found myself in exactly the same position as you I've hopefully seen the worst though, fingers crossed.

We added 2 Honey Gourami's and 3 Pigmy Cory on saturday to our Juwel Lido 120. Existing stock was 10 Guppies, 10 Endlers, 8 Cardinal Tetra & 4 Platy.

On Sunday morning our fish were displaying similar symptoms to what you descride, one of our 8 Cardinal Tetras was floating upside down and barley breathing, i put him into a quarantine/breeding basket and shortly afterwards one of my guppies was strugglig to swim and he had two stripes of grey in his previously bright yellow tail. Within a couple of hours both had died, the guppies tail completely rotted away in that time.

I went to my LFS and bought some protozin (after seeing a few white specs on the cardinals) and treated on Sun, Mon & Tuesday. By this time we had lost 5 Endlers & 2 Cardinals. One more guppy & another cardinal were starting to look awful so they were moved from the main tank into the basket.

The fish seemed to take ill and within a couple of hours of showing any sort of symptom they had pretty much rotted away from the tail forwards. Very fast and made me feel so helpless.

On Tuesday I took some photos of the guppy and tetra to my LFS (a very well trusted & respected one) who advised to stop treating with Protozin, change out 30% water & treat with 1/2 dose Pimafix & 1/2 dose Melafix. I also added some aqualibrium at the minimum dose and increased my tank temp to 27 from 24deg. We continued to lose fish until Thursday but fortunately things seemed to have settled down. I now have one Micky Mouse & one sunset platy who have tatty fins but they look to have seen the worst of it.

Water stats were/are fine, 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrites, 5ppm Nitrates & PH 7.5. Added Juwel Airation nozzle on Monday. Also running Eheim Ecco 2034 alongside Juwel internal.

Total Fish wiped out in 5 days = 5 Cardinal Tetra, 7 Endlers, 2 Guppy & 1 of the Pigmy Corys. Not a good week.

I will put a couple of pictures of my affected (now passed) fish up so you can see if they are anything like yours. It might help diagnose what you have and maybe the same treatment could work for you?

Warning, last pic shows a dead cory, i've linked to this instead of posting it should you not wish to see it, although it is intact its a bit furry!

1st sick guppy & cardinal (no tailfin & half colour gone) tetra. still alive at ths point:


another shot of the cardinal with the next ill fated guppy in the tank behind


The guppy from the last shot the next day with the stripe rotting into his tail. 5pm 11 May


Same guppy 5 hours later on 11 May, shortly before expiring


Dead cory, cant have been dead for more than a couple of hours
http/i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss111/k...ot/IMG_2026.jpg

Good luck, hope you get sorted quickly

The problem is either water quality or a disease brought in by the new neon tetras, possibly both.

If you need to move a tank you are better off doing a complete gravel clean and partial water change a day or two before you actually move it. This cleans the environment up and means you only have to drain the tank before you move it. Once you have moved it you simply refill it with the old water.

I would get the ammonia & nitrite levels checked with a liquid test kit because the paper strips can give unreliable results.
Do a 50% water change as well and remove any uneaten food. Perhaps even do another gravel clean to remove any gunk that might have built up in the substrate over the last few days.
Make the water up (add conditioner) before you add the new water to the tank.

Algae wafers should be removed if they haven’t been eaten within a few hours, otherwise they start to break down and cause ammonia levels to rise.

The fluffy bits on the Khuli loach is probably fungus, which affects damaged areas on the fish.
Rainbowfish are sensitive to chemicals and overdosing the tank or having high ammonia levels will stress and possibly kill them. The white patch that appeared on the caudal peduncle region (where the tail meets the body) could have been from the medication.

Corydoras catfish and Khuli loaches are sensitive to many chemicals used in medications. It is recommended to use a half dose of medication when treating these types of fish. Alternatively get a medication that is suited to them, ie: Triple/ Tri sulpha.

Mollies don’t need salt in their water unless they are kept in soft water. If you have hard water (lots of minerals in it) then they usually do fine without any salt. If you get locally bred stock then they will normally be fine in your water without any salt added.

Keep your undergravel filter running along with the powerhead/ motor. Most medications reduce the oxygen level in the water. You want as much surface turbulence as possible to maximise the oxygen levels in the water.

Can you give us the details of the medication you used?

To work out the volume of water in the tank
measure Length x Width x Height in cm
divide by 1000
equals volume in litres

When measuring the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level. If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove them before measuring the height.

Wilder:

No, the neon stripes are not bleached.
I am using "QuICK Cure" which claims to be useful for parasite infections including ick. The active ingredients are formalin and malachite green.
I increased the temp just now.

kirbot:

Sorry to hear about your tank. I certainly understand the frustrations.

Colin_T:

Thanks for the tip about moving the tank; I'm sure it won't be moved for a couple years but I'll keep it in mind.

Ammonia and nitrites were checked by strip at one store and liquid at another. The strip actually showed a very slight level which is why I bought the monitors, but the liquid showed nothing.

I haven't changed the water yet because I didn't want to stress them unecessarily and didn't know if it'd be more stressful to clean or to leave it. I decided today that I should go ahead and risk it though since nothing else is helping. 50% though, are you sure that wouldn't just make things worse? Also, I was hoping to refill the tank with bottled water when I do partial changes to slowly make the water softer so one day I can have rams, but I don't want to shock them while they're stressed and certainly not 50% at a time. Advice?

The first rainbowfish died before I medicated, though the one with the white spot was after medication so that could be it. However, I used only half dose (because of the tetras; the bottle recommends a half dose for tetras) and only once when the rainbowfish developed the spot. I medicated another half dose that evening and the fish was dead in the morning. Could have been medication I suppose but I don't understand why the first one died then (though it didn't have a white spot) since there was no medication and the water which was tested hours after I found the dead fish registered that everything was normal. For that one, there were no high ammonia levels or overdose of medication, I am fairly certain.

The medication is as follows (or see above):

"QuICK Cure"
For parasite infestations according to the bottle
Active ingredients are formalin, and malachite green.

Your method of measuring volume makes sense but I missed why I should measure volume, unless you were referring to my note that it is a 29 gallon tank? If you are talking about medicine dosage, I know for a fact that it's a 29 gallon and the instructions are for gallons not litres so knowing a more exact number and in litres doesn't seem to help. I'm sorry I missed what you were showing me there...






Both cories look ill, I only see one khuli, one guppy has stubble for a dorsal fin, and the remaining rainbowfish seemed to have trouble regulating itself in the water [was floating a bit perhaps] but now appears to be fine so I don't know what's up.

As always, all the fish look happy and healthy unless they are very ill. No signs of stress: Fins are erect and flowing, all fish are eating, they swim about as usual, no bullying or being shy unless otherwise noted, colors are all great.

The only things I can think of left to do are to remove the plant I got at the same time as the neons - I got it because it was unsual and lovely but I can't find it in any aquarium book. I know sometimes non-aquatic plants are sold as aquatic and only live a short time, and though it was in a tank with fish I keep wondering if maybe it's poisoning them in some way just because I don't know anything about it? It has braod leaves with pointed tips; light green with a dark green stripe. I'll get a pic if anyone thinks it's suspicious. The other thing I'm going to do is a partial water change; even though the parameters check out I figure if there's some sort of toxicity that isn't showing up which is lowering their immune systems a water change may help.

Other than those two things I'm just watching my fish die / I wish I knew what to do. I'm not an expert at fishkeeping though we've had fish for several years and I read about them all the time since I'm an animal lover... I hope this stops soon.

I took a few pictures tonight. This is my mystery plant:



Does it need to be taken out; is it toxic? Will it die eventually because it's not aquatic? Is this just some awesome aquatic plant I hadn't seen before? Any ID would be helpful.


Here's my little pepper cory, looking healthy but sad...




I added an air stone bubbler in hopes that it would keep everything well aerated despite the medications. If anyone knows whether I should get new meds or has any other ideas at all please let me know!

You can do a smaller water change if you like rather than a 50%. I usually just recommend a 50% so it dilutes anything nasty that might be in the water. Smaller water changes of 10-20% don’t do much to dilute chemicals, poor water quality or diseases.
The fish should be fine with a 50% water change as long as the new water is free of chlorine and has a similar temperature & pH to the tank water.
I have done and regularly did 80-90% water changes on my tanks. I used water that had been aged, dechlorinated, and of a similar temperature to the tank water. The fish were fine with the big water changes.

Make sure you use a clean bucket that hasn’t been used with chemicals for the water changes. Make sure you don’t have any soaps, grease, cream, etc on your hands when working on the tank.

Unless your tap water is really hard (GH above 300ppm) I wouldn’t bother using bottled water to soften it unless you want to keep wild caught blue rams. Virtually all rams sold in shops are captive bred and are quite happy in water with a general hardness up to 300ppm.

I mentioned the formula for tank volume because a lot of people buy a tank of x number of litres/ gallons (ie: 29gallon tank). Then they automatically treat the tank for that amount of water. However, most tanks don’t actually hold the stated amount of water when set up, they usually contain a lot less and fish often get poisoned from overdosing with medications. It’s not such an issue if you only half dose with the treatment.

There are approximately 4.5litres in a UK gallon and 3.785litres in a US gallon.

Formalin and malachite green is great for killing protozoan infections like whitespot but doesn’t do much for fungal or bacterial infections. Medications with Methylene Blue (and formalin & malachite green) work well for most fish diseases including bacterial, fungal and protozoan. However, the Methylene blue will stain the silicon (glue holding the glass tank together) blue and wipe out the filter bacteria.
Tetracycline based medications can be used to treat bacterial infections but these usually need to be obtained from a vet and will wipe out the filter bacteria as soon as they are added to the tank.

Your new plant is a garden or marsh plant and will eventually die if left underwater. You can plant it in a pot with some potting mix and keep it on your window sill.
Most true aquatic plants are unable to support their own weight when removed from the water. Whereas marsh plants are capable of standing upright when taken out of the water. The exception to this is Hygrophilla sp, Swordplants & Cryptocoryns. These plants will live in or out of water and do well in aquariums. However, crypts can be difficult sometimes.

I believe our hardness is right at 300ppm typically. On my test strips it just says "very hard" but the lfs told me both when they analyzed my water and in talking to a different employee that typical for my city is 300ppm. However, they also said any fish locally will be used to that and not to worry about it.

Thanks for all the advice and responses.


Update: The one khuli did die, but other than him I haven't had any deaths or visible illnesses in at least 24 hrs. The cories are becoming more active and no longer floating (one had trouble and would hover a few centimeters above the gravel so I dubbed him hover cat), the other khuli looks fairly good, and the rainbowfish and guppies look healthy as far as I can tell.

I did a water change and got a new medication because I didn't believe QuickCure was helping. I haven't read many positive things about it in other places either. I puchased API Pimafix Anti-fungal remedy. I don't know for sure if I have fungal or parasitic issues but the QuickCure was supposed to be for parasites so I thought I'd try something else since that wasn't working so well. I dosed today and it's supposed to be a seven day treatment. It says it's made from "pimenta racemosa", whatever that means...

The lfs suggested I upgrade my filtration system by adding an external filter to my ugf; he said even a small one, such as meant for 10 gallons, really improved his water quality and he had a much lower rate of outbreaks of diseases. Do you think an external filter that cascades the water back into the tank or a clip on internal hanging filter would be beneficial? Sorry I don't know the proper way to label the two types I've see; I hope whoever reads this knows what I mean. (-:



Oh! Update on the pH. I was pretty upset about this actually. I already had the ammonia monitor in the tank because that's the only one that even gave a blip of maybe something could be wrong when my water was tested, but it's remained at 0. Well, today I bought my own pH test kit; vial and drops, not slips of paper to dip into the water. My pH is off the chart alkaline! Both stores I tested my water at and my own test strips (remember one of the stores was liquid, one was test strip) told me my pH was fine. The people with the liquid test didn't give me a number, they just said it looked 'fine' or 'normal' or something that I don't recall. Now that I've seen my own blue vial I remember seeing that one of hte vials they had was blue but they didn't explain it; why didn't they tell me it was hardcore alkaline and not anywhere near neutral? The test strips all said it was neutral. Anyway, I don't know what to do about that other than that I refilled my tank with (aerated) distilled water which tested as pH neutral or slightly acidic. I know my neons at least like slightly acidic water and I think some other species do too, so I'm sad that neither store nor my own test strips identified my water correctly as alkaline. I don't know the exact number because my test kit is for 6.0-7.6 and it looks like the blue that is labled 7.6. If the actual pH is even higher than that, the paperwork said it will still register as 7.6 until it is down below that number. So who knows.

I know I can puchase pH neutralizers and pH 'downers' but I don't know how it will affect my medication and if that's wise at this time since I've never messed w/ pH before? If I should adjust it manually, what product is suggested? If there is some natural way to do it, what would you suggest?

And in case you're curious I tested our tap water and it was the same high pH. I just throw that in so you know it's not from something about the tank; that's just what Ive been putting in. If I would have known I would have done something but I trusted two strip tests and a liquid test... I hope that hasn't been a large contributing factor to killing off my fish. / If only, if only, the woodpecker sighs...






I removed the non-aquatic plant too, btw.


Let me know if anyone has any more ideas. Right now I'm just going to keep medicating for the suggested time, do a large water changed afterwards, and keep monitoring everyone.

Pimenta racemosa is the scientific name for the plant they make the pimafix out of. Try googling the name.

There is no need to upgrade your undergravel filter to an external power filter. An undergravel filter will work fine as long as you do a regular gravel clean. The gravel filters the water and regular cleaning of the substrate will keep it running effectively.

The filter that hangs on the side of the tank and has water cascading back into the tank is called a hang on back (HOB) type filter. The most common HOB is the Aquaclear filter.

The other type of external filter is called a canister filter. These are a plastic cylinder with a lid on the top and a couple of hoses that go to the tank. The water drains into them from the tank, goes through the filter materials and gets pumped back into the tank via the second hose.

Both types of external filter (HOB & canister) are good filters, but a well maintained undergravel will work just as well on most tanks. If you have lots of big rocks in the tank then an undergravel filter won’t work as effectively as an external filter.

If you do want to add an external filter then get the biggest one you can afford. Then you can use it on a bigger tank if you ever upgrade your current tank.

A pH of 7.6 is not a problem and most fish will tolerate that without any problems. The only time you really need to worry about pH and hardness is if you are keeping wild caught fish that naturally occur in soft acid water. Virtually ever fish sold in your local fish shop will be captive bred and be fine in water with a pH of 7.6 or even a bit higher. Therefore do not bother adjusting the pH unless you plan on keeping wild caught fish.

In the meantime just keep dong what you plan on doing and see how they go.