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Could This Be Tb?

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targa66

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I seem to have a mystery illness lurking in my 146 litre tank. (I've got guppies, swordtails (inc. fry), neon tetras and rosy tetras). The tank is fully cycled and has been up and running for over a year. Water stats are all good - no ammonia, nitrates, etc. Ph is about 7.8.

I've lost 3 guppies over the last year. Every so often, one suddenly becomes lethargic and slow, then seems to "stiffen" and die over the course of a few days. They also seem to develop a slight tail droop.

I noticed recently that my black male swordtail was paler than before, but other than that, he seems ok. Another orange/black female has also gone noticeably paler. And just recently, I noticed yet another female swordtail getting thin (but not pale), and exhibiting the tail droop and stiffening - it's almost like they can't swish their tails properly and just pull themselves along with their fins.

The fish that don't exhibit these symptoms all seem fine, but I am just holding my breath hoping no one else gets sick.

Any suggestions as to what this could be? I thought maybe TB because of the tail droop.

Please help - I am so worried.

thanks,
Shelly
 
Wilder said:
With having guppys and one going thin I would put it down to internal parasites like camallanous worms.
Signs of internal parasites are.
Long stringy white poo or clear mucas poo.
Being thin or bloated.
Enlarged anus or red and inflamed anus.
Worms prrutruding form the anus.
<a href="http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/nematodes.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/nematodes.shtml</a>
[URL="http://www.torrens.org.uk/NatHist/Aqua/disease/tb.html"]http://www.torrens.org.uk/NatHist/Aqua/disease/tb.html[/URL]
Click to expand...

Thanks Wilder! (It took me forever to get this - I don't know if Yahoo blocked email replies from this forum.)

I did have camallanous in the tank about 6 months ago. I only figured it out b/c when a guppy died, I could see the red camallanous protruding from her anus. I read everything I could, finally treated the whole tank wiht levimasole and things seemed fine for a while.
I carefully checked the last guppy to die and there weren't any protruding camallanous (although she did have a sort of "puffy" area around her anus). I havent' seen the white stringy poo for a while either. The most distinct thing (other than yet another female guppy dying) is 2 swordtails going definitely paler and a 3rd swordtail getting skinny and "stiff". So far, she is still eating though.

I still have some levamisole left over - if I treat the tank with it again, will it kill any parasites? Or does it only affect the camallanous?

Thanks again for your help.
Shelly
 
levamisole only kills intestinal round or thread worms.
tapeworm could be another problem and would require treating with Praziquantel, which is a tapewormer for dogs and cats. Use 100mg or Praziquantel per 20litres of tank water. re-treat the tank a week later. Do a partial water change 48hours after treatment. This medication will also treat gill flukes. These would suck the blood out of the fish and cause them to lose colour. They also cause the fish to breathe heavily and often the gills are flared out a bit.
There is a muscle wasting disease that destroys the muscle tissue and causes it to go white before the fish dies. There isn't a cure for this as far as I can remember.
TB generally causes one or more of the internal organs to fail/rupture and the fish swells up like a balloon. They often do a stringy white poo and go off their food. They die within a week of showing the symptoms. You can autopsy a fish and if it has TB you can see granulomas (small lumps) in the organ tissue. Rubber gloves should be used when dissecting dead fish to prevent you picking up an infection.
 
Fish TB shows up in many different ways depending on the fish affected. Spinal deformaty, wasting, lethargy and abnormal swimming/behaviour can all point to TB. Barbs, for example, go tail first - it's feasable that guppies and mollies do too.

Nor does TB necessarily kill within a week of the fish showing symptoms. I've recently had to euthanise a tetra because of TB that has been showing symptoms since January! I just didn't know the signs. The rest of his shoal are also symptomatic, so I'll likely be euthanising them sometime in the future, too :(

However, a fish that looks emaciated despite having a good appetite, could also have internal parasites. If it wasn't for the drooping tail, I'd be inclined to agree with the others and diagnose internal parasites. Any chance of a pic of the affected fish? Might help us a lot.
 
Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear and stated the fish die within a week of showing these particular symptoms, referring to the bloating, stringy white poo and going off their food.
 
Here's a photo- sorry for the quality, but I think it shows the posture (drooping tail & sunken belly).

So far - fingers crossed - no one else seems to be affected. The pale fish (not shown in photo) are still pale but otherwise ok. The one in the photo is still eating, but not much - she seems to be a bit weaker.

I haven't seen the extreme swelling or stringy white poo that Colin described.

The links that Wilder sent are very helpful. I'm reluctant to start dosing the tank since I'm still guessing at what this is. I am going to do a good gravel vacuum and water change just to eliminate whatever nasties I can.

thanks for all the help!
-Shelly
 

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Sunken in bellys can also be internal parasites.
How long did you treat for the internal parasites.
Swollen anus can also be a sign of internal parasites.
I would treat the tank again.
As for the very sick one in the picture he's to far gone to save, once they get really thin there infested with them
the damage has been done.
Internal parasites to alot of damage to the internal organ.

Camallanus



Symptoms:

When the fish is stationary, deep red worms can be seen protruding from the anal pore. They are only visible when the fish is still because the worms retreat into the intestine at the fish’s slightest movement. Other signs may include an inflamed and enlarged anus. In severe infestations, the fish may become emaciated and spinal curvature may also occur.



Cause:

The parasitic worms Camallanus Cotti and Camallanus lacustris. These small, livebearing parasitic worms attach to the intestinal walls and rectum with pinchers. The worm’s grip is so tight that any attempts to remove it forcibly will rip away tissue from the intestinal wall. The worm’s pinching causes ischemia (reduced blood flow) to that part of the intestine. In time, the tissue to that part of the intestine will die, at which time the worm will migrate to another part of the intestine. This causes perforations throughout the intestine, which allows other pathogens to gain entry. If the fish is not treated, either the parasite or bacterial will kill the fish. Camallanus infestations occur most often in livebearing fish such as Guppies and Mollies, though infection is possible in all fish. Camallanus infestations are contagious. All fish, including those not yet showing visible symptoms, as well as the aquarium, should be treated.



Treatment:

Treat with Internal Parasite Guard, Pipzine, Disco
 
i had a platy that was just the same as this one, the diesease didnt wipe out the tank, so i assume it wasnt TB, but it was too late for me to treat,so i hope you have better luck xxx
 
Wilder said:
Sunken in bellys can also be internal parasites.
How long did you treat for the internal parasites.
Swollen anus can also be a sign of internal parasites.
I would treat the tank again.
As for the very sick one in the picture he's to far gone to save, once they get really thin there infested with them
the damage has been done.
Internal parasites to alot of damage to the internal organ.

Thanks Wilder & Shelagh -

I treated with levamisole for camanallus a few months ago. But the camanallus were really obvious then - when a fish died, I could see them protruding from her. The fish that were affected also showed the swollen anus and on occasion, the protruding worms.

Since i treated the tank, I've not seen anyone with those particular symptoms. I examined the last guppy that died, and there were no worms protruding (although I was too squeamish to cut her open and look inside, to be honest). Plus, this new symptom of fish going paler made me think there was something else going on.

I've read that the levamisole can boost immunity, so maybe I'll just re-treat with that.

thanks again,
Shelly
Click to expand...
 
I would just treat the tank to be on the safe side.
I worm newly bought fish.
If its tb its best to destroy the fish as the fish is to far gone to save.
For Fish tb minocycline or tetracycline but the antibiotics will wipe the benefical bacteria out in your filter.
 
Wilder said:
I would just treat the tank to be on the safe side.
I worm newly bought fish.
If its tb its best to destroy the fish as the fish is to far gone to save.
For Fish tb minocycline or tetracycline but the antibiotics will wipe the benefical bacteria out in your filter.
Click to expand...

I think I am going to have to euthanize her - I've never done it, and absolutely hate the thought, but she's not getting better. Today I noticed a few white dots on her and I am afraid the rest of my tank is going to get sick.

I was wondering about the antibiotics - how does one treat the whole tank but keep it cycled?? So do you treat everything, let your beneficial bacteria get wiped out, then replace it with mature media from a different source?

thanks.
 
targa66 said:
I was wondering about the antibiotics - how does one treat the whole tank but keep it cycled?? So do you treat everything, let your beneficial bacteria get wiped out, then replace it with mature media from a different source?

thanks.
Click to expand...

If it's TB (and tbh, I think it is) the mycobacterium will be living in the filter. It clings to literally every surface of the tank. There's no way of saving the filter bacteria if you need to kill the myco in the filter.
 
I agree the filter bacteria want's wiping out if its tb.
 
Wilder said:
I agree the filter bacteria want's wiping out if its tb.
Click to expand...


So should I just use the antibacterial meds, wipe out the filter bacteria (and hopefully the bacteria that's causing illness), clean everything thoroughly and then have some mature media on hand to immediately replenish the filter?

Sigh - I've got three tanks up and running, and I can only assume I'm going to have to treat them all, even though it's only my biggest tank that seems to show the problems.

thanks.
 
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