Why I never suggest keeping fish in a vase

[Kyanite14]

THIS IS NOT MY FISH
I tested the water for a neighbor who keeps bettas in flower vases without any filter.

The ammonia test is literally off the charts, blue.

They were complaining that one of the two bettas had “lumps” on their chest and back and couldn’t swim upright. It would lay on its side towards the top of the tank. The photo shown looked exactly like swim bladder.
I asked a few questions, such as how much they feed them, do they use tap water etc. but when they told me about how they clean the vase, I was even more concerned.

When they clean the tank they remove everything and doused the vase in hot water. Completely sterilizing everything, including any possible beneficial bacteria that clings to the walls of the glass. Unfortunately, they refused to upgrade the vase to a tank or add an actual filter for bacteria to grow in. I told them what to do about the swim bladder, but mentioned that the Betta’s health will only deteriorate further unless the ammonia is addressed. They were cleaning the vase every 3 days, for the ammonia to get THAT high in such a short amount of time, I’m surprised the betta isn’t already dead.

I’ve heard of some people keeping bettas in similar conditions with them living for years, but the truth is they often aren’t as healthy as they look. When I touched the water for the test, it literally stung my skin. Imagine how that feels for the betta who lives and breathes through it? Just because they are alive, doesn’t mean they’re healthy. Ammonia poisoning often slowly kills fish, and causes high amounts of stress that predispose them to other health issues.

Beneficial bacteria can live in other places than the filter, but they prefer the moving water, and a vase is completely stagnant. I understand bettas like still water, but there’s a difference between the shallow, yet wide bodies of cycled water that the wild bettas live in, and a quart of tap water in a vase.

If for whatever reason you decide to keep your betta in a vase, ALWAYS make sure the ammonia level is in check. Keeping porous material like sponges gives bacteria a place to live can help. Adding bottled bacteria can also help. When cleaning, don’t dump out all the water and scrub with chemicals or hot water, just do a partial change like you would for any other tank. The large change can shock the fish. You don’t have to feed the fish daily, every couple days should be fine, especially since bettas are not very active.

But really, just get a tank and filter. Flower vases are way too small for any betta to thrive in. If you can’t afford a proper set up, don’t get a fish.

 

[GaryE]

In fishkeeping, a vase is one step away from an urn.

 

[emeraldking]

I do like to way in. For I've kept bettas in our community tank for years. But I also bred specifically bettas for 15 years. If a betta lays on its side, wether that's at the surface or on the bottom, that doesn't mean that it's a swim bladder problem right away. For that kind of positioning is also a normal way of positioning in the water for bettas. Both sexes can do that. Just speaking out of experience.

Don't get me wrong but I do understand where it's coming from that a lot of bettas are kept in small housings. I also prefer as much space as possible. But it's a labyrinth fish that is capable of living in poor oxygen and somewhat toxic water. And bettas with large fins aren't that vivid as short finned bettas. A filter system is not always needed if the tank is self sufficient. For that's possible. I've kept some tanks like that for over 3 years without any problems. When tested, it seemed even a better balance in the tank than the ones with a filtration in it. But actually, the plants already took care for a good natural filtration system in there. All fish in there were healthy and reproduced well. But you need to know what you're doing if one would keep it the way I've kept those tanks.

The way you've written your story down, does make me think that you're a person who wants the best for all living creatures. This is a very noble and a good quality a person can have. But that can also be a pitfall. And again, don't get me wrong. I'm also someone who wants the best for his fish (or any other living creature for that matter). But I'm also realistic. One needs to know how specific fish live in a natural situation and apply that in a captive environment. And sure, if one can even make it more comfortable for a fish, please do so. I'll be the last one to fight that. But a lot of people just think that all fish need the same care and conditions to live in. And that's what I mean by saying that one needs to know the needs of a specific fish. For there are a lot of fish in nature that live in poor water conditions but have adapted (by Mother Nature) to survive and reproduce in there. Why do you think that a labyrinth has developed in such fish. And I don't mean that they should be living in polluted water by saying this. But again, they have a labyrinth for a reason.

I still have some bettas overhere, btw. And they are in a well balanced tank without a filter system or heater. But again, you just need to know what you're doing.

 

[Kyanite14]

I do like to way in. For I've kept bettas in our community tank for years. But I also bred specifically bettas for 15 years. If a betta lays on its side, wether that's at the surface or on the bottom, that doesn't mean that it's a swim bladder problem right away. For that kind of positioning is also a normal way of positioning in the water for bettas. Both sexes can do that. Just speaking out of experience.

Don't get me wrong but I do understand where it's coming from that a lot of bettas are kept in small housings. I also prefer as much space as possible. But it's a labyrinth fish that is capable of living in poor oxygen and somewhat toxic water. And bettas with large fins aren't that vivid as short finned bettas. A filter system is not always needed if the tank is self sufficient. For that's possible. I've kept some tanks like that for over 3 years without any problems. When tested, it seemed even a better balance in the tank than the ones with a filtration in it. But actually, the plants already took care for a good natural filtration system in there. All fish in there were healthy and reproduced well. But you need to know what you're doing if one would keep it the way I've kept those tanks.

The way you've written your story down, does make me think that you're a person who wants the best for all living creatures. This is a very noble and a good quality a person can have. But that can also be a pitfall. And again, don't get me wrong. I'm also someone who wants the best for his fish (or any other living creature for that matter). But I'm also realistic. One needs to know how specific fish live in a natural situation and apply that in a captive environment. And sure, if one can even make it more comfortable for a fish, please do so. I'll be the last one to fight that. But a lot of people just think that all fish need the same care and conditions to live in. And that's what I mean by saying that one needs to know the needs of a specific fish. For there are a lot of fish in nature that live in poor water conditions but have adapted (by Mother Nature) to survive and reproduce in there. Why do you think that a labyrinth has developed in such fish. And I don't mean that they should be living in polluted water by saying this. But again, they have a labyrinth for a reason.

I still have some bettas overhere, btw. And they are in a well balanced tank without a filter system or heater. But again, you just need to know what you're doing.

I agree that bettas are able to survive somewhat toxic conditions through their labyrinth organ, but they definitely shouldn’t be put through it. I didn’t elaborate on the photo, but the betta was bloated in two places and unable to swim. I have seen people with success keeping fish without a filter, but they really need to be experienced to do it. This person wasn’t. Overfeeding, over cleaning, and in a container no fish would be happy in. It’s really hard to control water parameters in such a small vase, which no beginner should be doing in the first place.

 

[TNG]

I agree that bettas are able to survive somewhat toxic conditions through their labyrinth organ, but they definitely shouldn’t be put through it. I didn’t elaborate on the photo, but the betta was bloated in two places and unable to swim. I have seen people with success keeping fish without a filter, but they really need to be experienced to do it. This person wasn’t. Overfeeding, over cleaning, and in a container no fish would be happy in. It’s really hard to control water parameters in such a small vase, which no beginner should be doing in the first place.

I agree with what is said above.

I also agree with Emeraldking that no filter system is needed if the tank is self-sufficient, although for that to happen the tank has to be of a reasonable size, not a little container.

Bettas do live with labyrinth and “non-labyrinth” fish in nature, so the water must be of good enough quality for non-labyrinth fish to survive with the bettas. Labyrinth fish do better when there’s a long dry season when the water level in the pond drops very low with associated low oxygen levels. When that happens, the bettas and labyrinth fish survive longer while other fish perish first.

Someone posted a link to a video a few months ago, of a guy who went looking for bettas in Thailand. I wouldn’t be surprised if the swamp where they found the bettas had better quality water than water in the best of our tanks!

The myth that bettas live in crappy water in nature may well be a reason why we see many posts of sick bettas.

 

[GaryE]

I think there's a difference between keeping Betta splendens in small containers, and using vases. Small containers tend to reflect a utilitarian approach, with water changes, and vases suggest a home decorating approach, with dead fish. I agree with @emeraldking. Fancy Bettas are based off a species that is very low oxygen tolerant, and quite tough.

The reason we so many sick bettas is rotten breeding and marketing. They are often sick before we see them.

 

[Kyanite14]

I think there's a difference between keeping Betta splendens in small containers, and using vases. Small containers tend to reflect a utilitarian approach, with water changes, and vases suggest a home decorating approach, with dead fish. I agree with @emeraldking. Fancy Bettas are based off a species that is very low oxygen tolerant, and quite tough.

The reason we so many sick bettas is rotten breeding and marketing. They are often sick before we see them.

I see nothing wrong with small tanks for bettas as long as the parameters are stable and there’s enough biological filtration. Bettas definitely aren’t very active swimmers compared to most other fish. I’d prefer at LEAST 1 gallon for a betta, though. The more water there is the more room there is for error. I’d assume water parameters are decently stable in the wild, at least in terms of PH, and I doubt ammonia gets too high before bacteria and plants handle it.

Mechanical filters definitely make it easier to clean debris from the water and give a porous material for bacteria, but I think biological filters are the only “necessary” filter in any tank.

Although I think we may be missing what I was trying to point out. Bettas can survive fairly toxic water, but for the test to not even register what level it was (test chart only went to 8.0) and for the water to sting at the touch in JUST 3 days is just astounding. I couldn’t imagine any place on earth where fish could actually thrive in that toxic of an environment, and the betta was already sick when they reached out to me.

 

[GaryE]

I've watched a fair bit of go-pro footage of Bettas in nature. I have a friend who brought back footage and fish from Laos.

So for consideration - each male held a small territory, about 2 foot square, and about 18 to 24 inches deep. His only interest was with the surface. where tall grassy plants rose above. The pond itself, a local wetland, extended for a few acres. She fished and filmed at the edge of a dry spit of land that extended out.
It appeared like a place that would get smaller in the dry season, but the locals said it still would take a boat to cross, as the depth was uneven and you could get a good soaking if you decided it was knee deep. In dry season, male territories were about a foot all around. The local Betta crew said it was a typical habitat for splendens, but not for the smaller species.

A lot of territories would be opened up by birds eating the residents.

So the idea of the one gallon Betta container being based on nature is a myth. They are based on the convenience of breeders, who end up with large numbers of fry, and as they sex out, a lot of males that need to be kept apart to avoid damage to their money making linebred finnage (domestic females can have larger fins than the wild males I had). The Betta in a small jar is a commercial creation, not a natural one. As such, it's like the finnage and deformities we so treasure. I was surprised at how fast my wild Bettas were - they moved like rockets and leapt like killies.

We can't forget that Bettas are the fighting dogs of the fish world, and that breeders raised and selected them for gambling. They were bred for fins and colour, but there was also selection for aggression. Keeping them unfamiliar with other Bettas was part of that. It's only been maybe 50 years that they were considered as pets. They started out as Siamese Fighting Fish in the hobby. Domestic Bettas are infinitely more aggressive than my wild caughts were, both times I had them.

I can't go back. I'll never keep Betta splendens linebreds again.

 

[betta4ever!]

I've watched a fair bit of go-pro footage of Bettas in nature. I have a friend who brought back footage and fish from Laos.

Sorry for the off topic post. Are those videos available on any platform? I can't find much on youtube, and I'm really interested in such videos.

 

[GaryE]

Unfortunately, my friend doesn't put the videos up. The trolls wore her out and she barely participates in any mainstream internet stuff.

 

[betta4ever!]

Unfortunately, my friend doesn't put the videos up. The trolls wore her out and she barely participates in any mainstream internet stuff.

That's a shame... I'd have loved to watch them, as would many others I'm sure.

 

[sharkweek178]

Deep clearing

THIS IS NOT MY FISH
I tested the water for a neighbor who keeps bettas in flower vases without any filter.

View attachment 312861
The ammonia test is literally off the charts, blue.

They were complaining that one of the two bettas had “lumps” on their chest and back and couldn’t swim upright. It would lay on its side towards the top of the tank. The photo shown looked exactly like swim bladder.
I asked a few questions, such as how much they feed them, do they use tap water etc. but when they told me about how they clean the vase, I was even more concerned.

When they clean the tank they remove everything and doused the vase in hot water. Completely sterilizing everything, including any possible beneficial bacteria that clings to the walls of the glass. Unfortunately, they refused to upgrade the vase to a tank or add an actual filter for bacteria to grow in. I told them what to do about the swim bladder, but mentioned that the Betta’s health will only deteriorate further unless the ammonia is addressed. They were cleaning the vase every 3 days, for the ammonia to get THAT high in such a short amount of time, I’m surprised the betta isn’t already dead.

I’ve heard of some people keeping bettas in similar conditions with them living for years, but the truth is they often aren’t as healthy as they look. When I touched the water for the test, it literally stung my skin. Imagine how that feels for the betta who lives and breathes through it? Just because they are alive, doesn’t mean they’re healthy. Ammonia poisoning often slowly kills fish, and causes high amounts of stress that predispose them to other health issues.

Beneficial bacteria can live in other places than the filter, but they prefer the moving water, and a vase is completely stagnant. I understand bettas like still water, but there’s a difference between the shallow, yet wide bodies of cycled water that the wild bettas live in, and a quart of tap water in a vase.

If for whatever reason you decide to keep your betta in a vase, ALWAYS make sure the ammonia level is in check. Keeping porous material like sponges gives bacteria a place to live can help. Adding bottled bacteria can also help. When cleaning, don’t dump out all the water and scrub with chemicals or hot water, just do a partial change like you would for any other tank. The large change can shock the fish. You don’t have to feed the fish daily, every couple days should be fine, especially since bettas are not very active.

But really, just get a tank and filter. Flower vases are way too small for any betta to thrive in. If you can’t afford a proper set up, don’t get a fish.

This kind of deep cleaning is what people who don't know anything about fish keeping do because they think that's the best way to care for a fish. I don't judge people for making rookie mistakes. But if someone decides to take responsibility for a pet, then they should do the research to find out the best way to care for that animal. In this day and age, there is no excuse for being this ignorant of a pet's needs. So while I don't judge people for beginner mistakes, I think it is fair to judge them for not bothering to learn how to avoid those mistakes.

 

[GaryE]

There is still a strong view that animals were put here for us to use, and that a Betta is like a cut flower - expendable. Why would you want a fish to live 5 to 7 years? They come in so many colours and they're cheap, relatively - bettas were made to be changed up every few months. It's a common enough view.
It isn't that all people who mistreat animals are uninformed. Many simply don't value other species. It runs deep in how they've been taught.

 

[TNG]

Why would you want a fish to live 5 to 7 years? They come in so many colours and they're cheap, relatively - bettas were made to be changed up every few months. It's a common enough view.

I'd question how common that view is though.

 

[emeraldking]

I agree that bettas are able to survive somewhat toxic conditions through their labyrinth organ, but they definitely shouldn’t be put through it.

If you have read my reply, you should agree that I'm saying the exact thing...

I also agree with Emeraldking that no filter system is needed if the tank is self-sufficient, although for that to happen the tank has to be of a reasonable size, not a little container.

For sure...

Bettas do live with labyrinth and “non-labyrinth” fish in nature, so the water must be of good enough quality for non-labyrinth fish to survive with the bettas.

Well, that also depends on what kind of bettas we are talking about. When we talk about bettas, most people think that it's only related to the Betta splendens while there are more betta species that live in different conditions.

The reason we so many sick bettas is rotten breeding and marketing. They are often sick before we see them.

Well put. But most people don't realize that.

I see nothing wrong with small tanks for bettas as long as the parameters are stable and there’s enough biological filtration. Bettas definitely aren’t very active swimmers compared to most other fish

About not being active swimmers, that goes just for the long finned bettas, the double finned and the dumbo bettas.

I’d assume water parameters are decently stable in the wild, at least in terms of PH, and I doubt ammonia gets too high before bacteria and plants handle it.

In free nature water parameters are more stable than in captivity. But fish in free nature have also a higher tolerance in water parameter fluctuations than in captivity. Let's say that a heavy rain shower takes place in fee nature. The top layer of that water will change its parameters. In case fish can not tolerate that marginal change, they swim to deeper layers where the water parameters are still the same. But again, fish in free nature have a higher tolerance in the fluctuations of the water parameters than captive bred fish have.

So while I don't judge people for beginner mistakes, I think it is fair to judge them for not bothering to learn how to avoid those mistakes.

True. That's mostly because their enthusiasm wins from common sense. Which means, that they have the urge to get those fish as fast as possible instead of taking the time to do some research first.

There is still a strong view that animals were put here for us to use, and that a Betta is like a cut flower - expendable. Why would you want a fish to live 5 to 7 years? They come in so many colours and they're cheap, relatively - bettas were made to be changed up every few months. It's a common enough view.
It isn't that all people who mistreat animals are uninformed. Many simply don't value other species. It runs deep in how they've been taught.

This is well put...