Why has it all gone horribly wrong?

[Eebie]

Well, I'm now 4 months into my new tank and what started out as being a very healthy tank, has now turned into a tank of misery.

In fact, that statement is partially incorrect because the tank still appears to be healthy, but things still appear to be going wrong.

Firstly, my tank has no ammonia, no nitrites, a PH of about 6.8 and the hardness is about right (probably more soft than hard).
My plants are healthy, growing faster than I can imagine. In fact, I've had to trim them several times due to the fast pace of their growth.

I do a water change every week of about 20%

However, my fish have been experiencing several problems and I'm not sure what has happened to them.

My Green Tiger Barbs have lost weight and they have now changed from Dark Green to light Green, to now almost black! They don't eat anymore and have gone from fiery full of life fish, to almost lifeless. I'm not sure how much longer they will survive.
One Tiger Barb is often faded in colour and often hiding up the back with another Gold Barb. This Gold Barb has had fin rot, but this has now been fixed. However, the Gold Barb, just seems to hover head down most of the time.
I believe my fish have suffered from some form of fungus, possibly ICH or White Spot, but it's hard to detect this. I have treated the tank for White Spot, Velvet and ICH in the hope that this problem will be fixed, but this doesn't appear to be working.
Could it be something else?

I had 3 Rosy Barbs and 1 Striped Barb that were growing out of control and their behaviours were also stressful. I couldn't walk past the tank or near it without them panicking and racing to the back of the tank and causing all sorts of stress to the tank. It got to the point where I was scared to walk to the tank.

Anyway, they have gone now. I took them to my local stockist to look after. I couldn't stand there distructive behaviours any longer.

I'm now becoming very disheartened with whats been happening, and I don't know what to do or how to fix it. When I've discussed the issues with people at the aquarium shop, they say I have nothing to worry about!

I had a really lively, healthy tank full of lively colourful fish and now it all seems to be going pear shaped.

Have I done something wrong here? I have no intention of stocking my tank any longer until I know whats going on and whether I can fix it.

I have a 90 litre tank with 11 mostly unhappy fish now.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bol]

Hi, eebie.

All is not lost!, but some more info would help. Let's start with the easier ones.

First off, the most obvious one: what is your nitrate level? That's probably the most important test result in a four-month-old tank.

* You say "hardness is about right". Do you mean GH or KH? And, numbers would help, too (especially the KH number).

* Do/did you use any substance to explicitly change the pH? If so, what was it, and how often was it added?

* What medications have you put into the tank, and how exactly did you administer them? In particular, did you happen to use any filter media with activated carbon in it during or after the medication?

* Also, it seems that you refer to "white spot" and "Ich" as two separate things. As far as I know, they are the same. Did you medicate for them differently?

 

[totalbolshevik]

Are you SURE that your fish have had ich and fungus? Probably not a good idea to pour a bunch of meds in there without knowing for sure what they have. Did the problems with your fish arise before or after you treated them? What kind of medication did you use?

Also, is it possible that some non-fishy chemical has somehow gotten into the tank? Things like laundry detergent...?

 

[Shizat]

My 2 cents is that you have a 20 gallon tank with a lot of semi agressive fish in it with no where to run off to if there is a bully lurking in there.

 

[Eebie]

Well Bol after reading your message I have to say I'm very concerned because a lot of those points you raised, I have no understanding of, and that worries me.

Let me respond to each point as much as I can

First off, the most obvious one: what is your nitrate level? That's probably the most important test result in a four-month-old tank.

I have no idea what my nitrate is? Do I need yet another test kit for that?
If Nitrates are a concern, what are the symptoms?

* You say "hardness is about right". Do you mean GH or KH? And, numbers would help, too (especially the KH number).

I have no idea what the difference is between GH or KH? My test kit mentions nothing of any difference, just suggests based on the test whether the water is hard or soft.

* Do/did you use any substance to explicitly change the pH? If so, what was it, and how often was it added?

With my PH, it's been around 7.0 or just under since I've had the tank. I've only adjusted it slightly based on the chemicals supplied with the test kit. Usually kept it under based on the fact that I have Barbs and that they like acidic water apparently.

* What medications have you put into the tank, and how exactly did you administer them? In particular, did you happen to use any filter media with activated carbon in it during or after the medication?

I used a product called Protozin, which treats Whitespot, Velvet, Costiasis, Trichodiniasis, Neon Tetra Disease and Fungus. I just added it to the water based on its instructions. 2.5ml each day for the first 3 days and then again on the 6th day. 2.5ml is based on my tank size. Did not use filter media etc that you mention, have no idea what that means actuallly.

* Also, it seems that you refer to "white spot" and "Ich" as two separate things. As far as I know, they are the same. Did you medicate for them differently?

No, I didn't treat them differently.

Not sure if any of my answers help, but I'm really losing heart here, as I feel really helpless with whats happening. Everytime I ask my local Aquarium, I come away feeling like nothing is wrong and that everything is fine, when it's actually not.

 

[ajhainey]

I think most of your confusion is probably caused by your test kits - don't worry, you'll get there! I'm a complete newbie myself but my advice based on what I've seen so far would be

1) Buy a nitrate testing kit (yes it is different to mitrite and yes you need to monitor it - see the 'cycle' bit on this site)
2) Buy a GH (overall carbonate and non-carbonate hardness)and a KH (carbonate only) testing kit. Carbonates are dissolved 'salts' by the way, harder=more salts(iirc)
3)Stop messing with the ph - its easy to get wrong and probably not essential for most fish - especially if you 'tap' ph is so close to neutral (7.0 is neutral)

Nitrates are created by bacteria from nitrites and are used by plants as food (again see the 'cycle' page) - but if you have no real plants and don't change the water often enough they build up and give you problems like green algae and unhappy fish (Glazed eyes, Unaware of surroundings, Loss of balance, dropsy etc - generally susceptible to most 'stress' diseases). Nitrates are measure in ppm (parts per million) and when you get a test kit you are aiming for less then 25ppm of nitrate. Lower=better. If it is too high make daily 5-10% water changes to gradually lower it - as changing the water all at once is so much stress that even though it's clean your fish might die from shock anyway.

Hope that helps! Don't give up hope

aj xx

 

[Bol]

Not to worry, Eebie! Aquarium water chemistry can look daunting, but in practice, most of it is pretty simple.

About nitrates. There is a "nitrogen cycle" that happens in your tank (I'd suggest reading up on "cycling"). Here's a simplified version: Fish produce ammonia (NH3). Certain bacteria will convert ammonia to nitrites (NO2). Other bacteria convert nitrites to nitrates (NO3).

Ammonia and nitrites are toxic to fish, even in very small quantities. Fish can handle nitrates better, and nitrates only become toxic at high levels. (By the way, removal of nitrates is one of the main reasons for regular water changes).

There is a separate test for nitrates. Often it's not included in a "Master Test Kit". I hightly recommend getting one, as once a tank is mature, it's the test you'll be using most often. (Remember, nitrates are designated with NO3, which is sometimes written on the test package).

About hardness. There are two concepts that are (unfortunately) both often labelled with the word "hardness".

GH - General Hardness. This is a measure of certain dissolved salts in your water -- mostly calcium and magnesium. General Hardness is what people are talking about when they mention "hard water" or "soft water". GH usually has little impact on your pH.

KH - Carbonate Hardness. This is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions in your water. The reason KH is important (arguably more important than GH) is because KH is related, chemically, to pH. KH is often called "total alkalinity", especially in multiple-test kits.

About changing pH. Sounds to me like your test kit contained a small sample of a product like "pH down", or something similar. The general consensus is that the aquarist should avoid using these products, and let the fish adapt to whatever water is available. Of course, in some cases, this isn't possible, but for most people, their tap water will be just fine (even if it's not the 'ideal' pH for their fish). I would also recommend not using this product any more.

About medications. I'm not familiar with the product you mention, but it sounds like a parasite treatment with an antibacterial substance added. Most likely a decent product, and you followed directions, so that's probably ok.

By 'filter media' I meant whatever is doing the actual filtering, such as a sponge, some foam, or floss (polyester fibers) -- sometimes these are packaged as 'cartridges' that you insert into your filter.

The reason I mentioned filter media is that sometimes filter cartridges will include activated carbon. Activated carbon (AC) is very good at adsorbing all sorts of compounds, which is why it's a good filter medium. Unfortunately, it's also usually pretty good at adsorbing medicines, so most medications instruct you to remove activated carbon from your filter before dosing.


So, although it may not help with your immediate problem (although it might), I'd suggest getting both a nitrate test and a KH test (unless you already have one; rememver, it may be called 'total alkalinity'). Those two will help a lot in the future.

And, Shizat brings up a good point. You have a lot of semi-agressive fish in there, and they may just be 'spooked'. Are there plenty of 'hiding spaces' and/or things that can help mark off territory in the tank?

 

[totalbolshevik]

Eebie, first of all, I know exactly how you feel. I've been there many times before, and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I doubt it's your nitrates due to the fact that you change your water on a regular basis, which should take care of that.

pH up/down products generally do more harm than good--they change the pH for a short period of time, then it goes back to the way it was.

Have you been adding anything to the water for your plants? Fertilizer, CO2, etc?

 

[nirvanarama]

i no ive only jus jined n ive only got a biorb at the minute but i no for sure tht putting a load of disease treatments wasnt a gr8 idea, mostly because tht mixture of treatments could turn out 2 react and b toxic n distressing 4 your fish

 

[Eebie]

Thanks everyone for the feedback I'm receiving, however, I am still confused on some of the things mentioned, because as totalbolshevik mentioned, I am doing regular water changes.
I do a water change every week of about 20 - 25% of the water. I do this by syphoning with a gravel cleaner.

I have not added any other products to my tank in the way of chemicals. I was considering some plant food/fertilizer, but have so far decided not to do that.
I am reluctant normally to add any other chemicals. I took weeks for me to decided to use treatment for the fungus, as I was advised to just keep doing water changes, and keep the tank healthy and the disease should go naturally!

ajhainey mentioned that nitrates build up if I have no real plants, don't do water changes and have green algae. Well, I only have real plants and as mentioned in my initial post, grow reasonably well. I have a little bit of algae, but only need to give the glass a quick clean about once a month, and even then it's in small amounts.
So, to me this would suggest that I shouldn't have a nitrate problem.
I will still obtain a test kit for peace of mind.

I will avoid worrying about PH from now on and stop using PH uppers and downers

I now understand about "the filter media". Nothing was mentioned by my aquarist about doing this, and in fact, it actually crossed my mind about removing the filter pads I have. I have an underground filter, which feeds up to the top of the tank where my filter is, it has two fibre pads which obviously contain the rubbish my underground filter syphons from the tank. If I treat the fish again, I will remove them next time.

The fish behaviours are still concerning me though. As I type this, the majority of my fish are hovering near the top of the tank under the pump. I don't have any overly aggressive fish in my tank. Well, not that I've been able to see at this time.
I still have issues with their nervous behaviours, still can't walk near the tank without spooking them.

I thought I'd get a lot of enjoyment by having an aquarium, but it's just becoming troublesome and stressful. I can't even look at it now, can't see my fish and when I do look, they bolt!

 

[Bol]

I have an underground filter, which feeds up to the top of the tank where my filter is, it has two fibre pads which obviously contain the rubbish my underground filter syphons from the tank. If I treat the fish again, I will remove them next time.

Eebie, you really only have to remove the filter media if it contains activated carbon. If it's just a sponge, or some fiber pads, you can just leave them in and change them after medicating is complete.

For the problem, maybe it's time to go back to the real basics.

Does the tank have a background on it, or is it exposed on all sides?
How long do you leave the lights on each day?

 

[Eebie]

Tank does not have a background and is exposed from all sides, but is up against a wall. Light is on during the day and into early evening. No-one is at home during the day, but has to be turned on early for feeding. Light is on about 12 hours all up probably.

Could these be part of my problem?

BTW, I've lost a Green Barb now

 

[crookedfish]

When you do a water change, do you put de-chlorinated water back in?

If not, this could be causing the problems that you are seeing.

Si

 

[Bol]

That's a good question, too. It's easy to assume that the new water is properly dechlorinated.

As far as general stress goes, most people tend to think a background generally helps. In my experience, it seems to. Also, I wouldn't think that 12 hours of light per day would be causing much problem -- that's a pretty common length of 'day' in planted tanks.

It's tough to say, but I still sort of feel like the problem is more chemical than 'mental'. I wouldn't think that general stress would cause such a significant problem, especially over such a relatively long period of time.

Oh, and, one more possibly silly question ... the tank doesn't happen to be close to an often-used loud sound source (like a speaker, TV, or portable stereo), does it?

 

[Eebie]

Gee, this gets harder by the minute

Um, I dont de-chlorinate the water before putting it in. How can that be done realistically?
I mean I take out roughly two buckets (about 9 litres), so I'm not sure how I can get the chlorine out before adding it to the tank.
I treat the water as soon as I add the water for chlorine. I was advised that this would be OK.

I will attempt the background cover. The tank is near a doorway, not major noise. I mean the tank is in the living room, but doesn't experience loud noise on a regular basis.
I have a feeling the closeness of the doorway might have a bearing on their behaviour, however, until a few weeks ago, it wasn't an issue.