White Spot

[sparkypenguin]

Hi all,

Hoping for some help.....
I believe that I have introduced white spot into my tank with some new arrivals.
It is currently only showing on my black phantom tetras but some of my cherry barbs have started to swim in the bubble columns so may be using this as a way of scratching.
I have read the post https://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-is-ich.7092/.
I know my options but hoped for some extra advice as included in my tank I have shrimps, snails, 2 goldfish and a loach.
I don't really want to remove any of the inhabitants from my tank as I believe this will stress them and they are a nightmare to catch.

My set up......
I have a 360 litre tank with 3 filters, in total they turn the water over approx. 6 times per hour.
I have no carbon in any of the filters.
I have 2 heaters and 2 air pumps feeding 4 air stones.
My substrate is sand and my decor includes bogwood, plants, plastic plants, plastic ornaments, coconut shells and moss balls.
I perform daily water changes (Treated with Prime) totalling approx. 54% of the total water per week.
I hoover the substrate as required.

My list of inhabitants.....
15 x Cherry Barb
14 x Black Phantom Tetra
10 x Platy
11 x Molly
2 x Bristlenose Plec
9 x Panda Cories
1 x Hillstream Loach
2 x Golden Apple Snail
2 x Nerite Snail
2 x Amando Shrimp
1 x Black Moor Gold Fish
1 x Fancy Tail Gold Fish

So far I have...
Turned the temperature up from 22c to 23c and planning to increase to 24c later today but I think that any higher may be unsuitable for the 2 gold fish.
Added an extra air pump with 2 air stones.
Cleaned all of the filters.
Currently doing 100% water change over the course of the day and will double my daily change to approx. 15% whilst I have the issue.

Options.....
I could remove the 2 gold fish as they are reasonably easy to catch and turn the temperature up higher but what would be the max given what I have in the tank?
I have some interpet white spot plus which contains Formaldehyde and Malachite green axalate but I am unsure as to whether it is OK to use with the snails, shrimp, loach?
I could remove the snails as they will be easy to catch but the loach is virtually impossible to catch unless you have a totally empty tank.

Any help much appreciated.
Kind regards,
Mark.

 

[10 Tanks]

Hello Sparky. Unless you have a lot of experience in fish biology, there's really no way to know what's going on with your fish, if anything. Your best option is too gradually increase your water change routine. Work up to the point you're changing half the tank water weekly. More in this case is better. When you perform a water change, you could include vacuuming the bottom material. The water change is the best thing you can do for your fish. Keep it simple. Don't mess with medications, your fish will be healthier without them.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

 

[sparkypenguin]

Hello Sparky. Unless you have a lot of experience in fish biology, there's really no way to know what's going on with your fish, if anything. Your best option is too gradually increase your water change routine. Work up to the point you're changing half the tank water weekly. More in this case is better. When you perform a water change, you could include vacuuming the bottom material. The water change is the best thing you can do for your fish. Keep it simple. Don't mess with medications, your fish will be healthier without them.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Thanks 10 Tanks but that's basically what I am already doing and I am 99% sure it's white spot so unfortunately water changes alone will not solve the problem.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

it is difficult to deal with ich without meds even if that is just salt. The temp needed to have any chance of halting ich is 86F+ (30C+). The problem is that some strains of ich have been found which survived low 90sF.

Your mix of fish etc. belong in different water parameters, not the same ones for them all. That means some fish will always be somewhat stressed and that leaves them open to infections etc. I have added infobelow when it helps to provide an equivalent measurements my additions are italicized. All info is from seriouslyfish.com

Cherry Barb- Temperature: 20 – 27 °C -
pH: The farm-raised fish available in stores are fairly adaptable where water chemistry is concerned and should be happy within the range 6.0 – 8.0. Wild stock are likely to prefer slighty acidic to neutral conditions.
Hardness: 36 – 357 ppm. Wild fish will probably do best towards the lower end of this range.

Black Phantom Tetra- Temperature: 20 – 28 °C
pH: 5.0 – 7.0
Hardness: 18 – 215 ppm

Platy-
Temperature: 68-79°F (20-26°C)
pH: 7.0-8.2
Hardness: 10-30 dH (178 - 534 ppm)

Molly (I assume you have Poecilia sphenops)- Temperature: 70-82°F (21-28°C)
pH: 7.0-8.5
Hardness: 15-30 dH (267 - 534 ppm)

Bristlenose Plec- (I assume you have Ancistrus sp. Common Bristlenose Catfish)- Temperature: 21 – 26 °C
pH: 5.5 – 7.5
Hardness: 18 – 268 ppm

Panda Cories- Temperature: Wild fish prefer lower temperatures but tank-bred specimens are happy over the range 72 to 77°F (22 to 25°C). It won't do well if kept in warmer water than this long-term, with the likelihood its lifespan will be reduced considerably.
pH: 6.0 to 7.4
Hardness: 1 to 12°H (17.8 -- 213 ppm)

Hillstream Loach (I assume you have Sewellia lineolata)- Temperature: Can tolerate higher temperatures provided its oxygen requirements are maintained but for general aquarium care a value of 20 – 24 °C (68 - 75F) is recommended.
pH: 6.0 – 7.5
Hardness: 18 – 179 ppm

Black Moor Gold Fish- (Info from https://badmanstropicalfish.com/black-moor-goldfish/ )- The ideal water temperature for the species ranges between 65 to 72F, which means you won’t require setting up an aquarium heater.
pH levels should stay stable between 6.0 and 8.0, with ammonia at 0 ppm. Goldfish don’t tolerate ammonia spikes very well, but they do tend to create a lot of waste.
Hardness: (No info provided, Another site suggests)- The water hardness should be in the range of 5 to 19 dGH (89 - 338 ppm)

Fancy Tail Gold Fish- (From https://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-types/fantail-goldfish/#Water_Parameters )
Fantail goldfish are coldwater fish, requiring a water temperature of between 65° to 72° F (18.3 - 22.2C)
The ideal pH range is between 6.0 and 8.0
hardness should be in the range of 5 to 19 dGH (89 - 338 ppm).

Golden Apple Snail- These are considered to be invasive in much of the world. (info from https://www.applesnail.net/content/care.htm )
Please read here https://www.applesnail.net/content/care.htm
(I got one of these unplanned and it decimated the plants in a 15 gal. I was about to kill it when a friend said she would take it, and she did.)

Nerite Snail- (info from https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/nerite-snail-care )
What are the different kinds of nerite snails? Depending on the species, their shells may have solid colors, stripes, dots, zigzags, and even little spikes. Popular varieties include zebra, black racer, red racer, tiger, and horned and olives are also popular.
Because many of them come from brackish water environments, they prefer freshwater setups with higher pH above 7.0 and lots of minerals (this means somewhat harder water). If you have soft tap water and notice your snails are getting cracked or eroded shells, increase the minerals in their water and food to keep the damage from progressing. We like to use crushed coral in our substrate and filter media to buffer up the pH. Then we add Wonder Shells or Seachem Equilibrium as mineral supplements that provide calcium, magnesium, and other trace elements.

Amando Shrimp- (Amano info from https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/amano-shrimp-spineless-heroes/ )
Temperatures are tolerated between 18 and 27°C/64.4°F and 80.6°F
below 6.0 pH they will struggle. They will go up much higher and all the way to 7.5 pH without problems.
Hardness needn’t be high, but GH should not be below 6° for successful moulting.
(Note)- Avoid salt, too. Though this chemical is essential for the rearing of larval shrimp, the adults have no tolerance of it and even background levels used as tonics (3g per litre) can be lethal to them.

 

[Naughts]

Hi all,

Hoping for some help.....
I believe that I have introduced white spot into my tank with some new arrivals.
It is currently only showing on my black phantom tetras but some of my cherry barbs have started to swim in the bubble columns so may be using this as a way of scratching.
I have read the post https://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-is-ich.7092/.
I know my options but hoped for some extra advice as included in my tank I have shrimps, snails, 2 goldfish and a loach.
I don't really want to remove any of the inhabitants from my tank as I believe this will stress them and they are a nightmare to catch.

My set up......
I have a 360 litre tank with 3 filters, in total they turn the water over approx. 6 times per hour.
I have no carbon in any of the filters.
I have 2 heaters and 2 air pumps feeding 4 air stones.
My substrate is sand and my decor includes bogwood, plants, plastic plants, plastic ornaments, coconut shells and moss balls.
I perform daily water changes (Treated with Prime) totalling approx. 54% of the total water per week.
I hoover the substrate as required.

My list of inhabitants.....
15 x Cherry Barb
14 x Black Phantom Tetra
10 x Platy
11 x Molly
2 x Bristlenose Plec
9 x Panda Cories
1 x Hillstream Loach
2 x Golden Apple Snail
2 x Nerite Snail
2 x Amando Shrimp
1 x Black Moor Gold Fish
1 x Fancy Tail Gold Fish

So far I have...
Turned the temperature up from 22c to 23c and planning to increase to 24c later today but I think that any higher may be unsuitable for the 2 gold fish.
Added an extra air pump with 2 air stones.
Cleaned all of the filters.
Currently doing 100% water change over the course of the day and will double my daily change to approx. 15% whilst I have the issue.

Options.....
I could remove the 2 gold fish as they are reasonably easy to catch and turn the temperature up higher but what would be the max given what I have in the tank?
I have some interpet white spot plus which contains Formaldehyde and Malachite green axalate but I am unsure as to whether it is OK to use with the snails, shrimp, loach?
I could remove the snails as they will be easy to catch but the loach is virtually impossible to catch unless you have a totally empty tank.

Any help much appreciated.
Kind regards,
Mark.

I think you realise that your eclectic mix of fish has resulted in no really viable options in this situation.
If you remove the goldfish for the heat treatment there is a risk that they will have ich and possibly reintroduce it to the tank.
You could remove the snails and shrimp then use the Interpet treatment, the information online says not to use with marine fish or elephant nose fish so the loach may be OK.

As @10 Tanks says, clean substrate and filters with big water changes reduces the amount of pathogens so take this approach in addition to either method.

 

[sparkypenguin]

@TwoTankAmin
Thanks taking so much time in your response.
I am aware that my tank is a bit of a mix and this is due to a few factors including newbie mistakes and bad advice.
I have used your info along with other sources and I think my main issue in terms of water parameter suitability are the mollies which were included in my first purchase.

Also I have picked up some of the more unlikely inhabitants via another tank that I purchases, these include the Goldfish, the shrimps and the loach, they were all meant to go to a LFS but they ended up in my main tank as a temporary measure.
And as they all seemed to be doing well I decided to keep them on the assumption that they will have a better chance of a good life under my care than gambling with who ends up with them via the LFS.

Back to the water changes.......

 

[GaryE]

I'm a little concerned for you here.

Ich will not vanish with water changes and good maintenance. It's a creature that got into your tank and will kill fish in pristine water. You can't use heat, which is ineffective. Salt is harsh and doesn't always work. You will need to treat if you see the cysts, like salt sprinkled on the fish. Because of your eclectic mix, the parasite will likely kill easily as fish with different needs altogether are under stress and are weakened.

You need to bite the bullet and use a malachite green based med. Follow the instructions closely. You don't need experience in fish biology to recognize ich - google images will work. If you just change water and not treat, the tank could wipe out. Ich is an occasional opportunistic parasite in the wild, and fish shake it off. In the glass walls of an aquarium they can be exposed to enormous numbers of hungry parasites with no one able to just swim away.

 

[sparkypenguin]

I'm a little concerned for you here.

Ich will not vanish with water changes and good maintenance. It's a creature that got into your tank and will kill fish in pristine water. You can't use heat, which is ineffective. Salt is harsh and doesn't always work. You will need to treat if you see the cysts, like salt sprinkled on the fish. Because of your eclectic mix, the parasite will likely kill easily as fish with different needs altogether are under stress and are weakened.

You need to bite the bullet and use a malachite green based med. Follow the instructions closely. You don't need experience in fish biology to recognize ich - google images will work. If you just change water and not treat, the tank could wipe out. Ich is an occasional opportunistic parasite in the wild, and fish shake it off. In the glass walls of an aquarium they can be exposed to enormous numbers of hungry parasites with no one able to just swim away.

Hi Gary,

Thank for the reply.
I have some interpet white spot plus that has Formaldehyde and Malachite green axalate in it.
Is this safe for the snails / shrimps / loach? I read mixed opinions on whether it is or not?
I have also read that you half the dose for certain medicines if you have snails but then another says that if you half the dose of any of the medicines then they simply do not work.

I am doing the water changes to try and give myself a bit extra time.
I have turned the temp up as I have read that this makes the free swimming stage shorter so they have less time to find a victim.

I am also currently setting up a second 60L tank in case I need it for.....
a. The snails - easy catch.
b .The shrimp - not very easy to catch.
c . The goldfish if I decide to raise the temp beyond their max.
d. The loach but as this is almost impossible to catch I think it is going to have to stop in the tank during the treatment.
This tanks has been filled with tap water and treated to remove chlorine etc.
However I am concerned that it will not be cycled and I do not really want to cross contaminate any more than I have to by using any of my existing tanks water / filter media.
Therefore I am planning to do large water changes each day.
Is this OK?

 

[sparkypenguin]

I am of to the LFS to get some Protozin which they have told me will be OK for my scaleless loach.
When I get back I will be removing the snails and hopefully the shrimp.
I guess I know one of the reasons people keep shrimp only tanks now!
Any continued help much appreciated.

 

[GaryE]

I haven't ever gotten into shrimp, so I would be doing what youi're doing, looking it up. When using malachite green and formalin, I have never lost snails. It's unfortunate, but it doesn't kill the filthy little $%$#$s. I don't like pond snails.

Loaches? I had clown loaches years ago but they outgrew my 300L and I gave them away. I also crashed some early one when I thought a 100L would be fine. The pet store said it would and I was new at it. So I never had to treat ich with them, and would also be sharing second hand info.

 

[Essjay]

Just for information, Protozin contains malachite green, formalin and copper.

The website warns "NB. Do not use with crayfish, crabs, shrimps, lobsters or related species".

 

[10 Tanks]

Hello again. Have had a tank that's been up and running for quite some time. It developed a parasite, likely Ich and killed most of the fish. A few very hardy fish survived and still live in the tank. It's a really well planted and attractive tank, but I understand the Ich parasite can live in a dormant state for an indefinite period. Only tank I've ever had that developed a parasite. Decided not to medicate the tank or ever add fish. Instead, I added more plants and it turned out to be a very nice looking addition to the living room.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

 

[sparkypenguin]

Hello again. Have had a tank that's been up and running for quite some time. It developed a parasite, likely Ich and killed most of the fish. A few very hardy fish survived and still live in the tank. It's a really well planted and attractive tank, but I understand the Ich parasite can live in a dormant state for an indefinite period. Only tank I've ever had that developed a parasite. Decided not to medicate the tank or ever add fish. Instead, I added more plants and it turned out to be a very nice looking addition to the living room.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Hi @10 Tanks
What I've read over the last few days seems to contradict what you are saying.
I believe Ich goes through 3 stages all with a defined time period depending on the water temperature.
Hence if it cannot complete any of these stages and therefore move to the next stage it will die.
If this is incorrect then I am sure someone will quickly correct me!

 

[sparkypenguin]

OK so update....

2nd tank up and running yesterday.
All 4 snails and the 2 shrimp have been transferred to this tank.
I am concerned that it has not been cycled so I will be doing large scales water changes every day.
Will this be OK?

I emptied most of the decor out of my main tank so that I could catch the shrimp so I will likely give it all a good clean and chlorine dip etc.
I will then put it back once I am happy that the Ich has gone.
I have put the first dose of Protozin into my tank (30ml for 300L)
In total it will require 4 doses of 30ml, Days 1, 2, 3 and 6.
I bought enough to do another course straight after if I decided it is required.
I have left the loach in the tank as I could not catch it and the LFS did say it should be OK so fingers crossed it will.

One thing I did notice which may have been an early warning sign was that my cherry barbs started to "play" in the bubble streams.
I have only just acquired these recently so that may well be normal behaviour for them but it could also have been them using the bubbles to "itch" themselves. Just a thought!

Thanks to everyone for their advice!
And I will let you know how things progress.....

 

[sparkypenguin]

One thing I have read was the effect of the temperature on the time that the various stages take.
Basically the hotter the water the shorter the cycle takes.
As it's only vulnerable in the free swimming stage then surely the length of the treatment should be adjusted depending on the temperature?
So I did some googling and came across this article...

CIR920/FA006: Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Quotes.....

"Although Ichthyophthirius multifiliis has a direct life cycle (i.e., it reproduces without a need for another animal species host) (Figure 2), the life cycle is complex and has three distinct life stages: 1) the on-fish, feeding trophont (Figure 3); 2) the environmental, reproducing tomont (Figure 4); and 3) the infective, fish-seeking theront (see Figure 5). The trophont invades and encysts between the thin outer layers (epithelium) of the fish host’s skin and gills to feed on those tissues (Figure 6). Because it is covered by the fish’s epithelial tissue and mucus, the adult parasite, or trophont stage, is protected from chemical treatment. Once the trophont is mature, it stops feeding, leaves the fish, and becomes a tomont. The tomont quickly secretes a gelatinous-walled outer cyst (Figure 4) that allows it to stick to surfaces in the environment. Some references consider the tomont to be the stage that leaves the fish, becoming a tomocyst after it settles and forms a cyst, but for purposes of EDIS we will use the more traditional life cycle as described in Figure 2. The tomont begins to divide quickly up to 10 times, forming as many as 1024 new “daughter” parasites (tomites) within a single cyst (Figure 4). This can occur in 18 – 24 hours at warmer water temperatures (23°C/74°F). The gelatinous wall of the tomont cyst protects it and the daughter tomites from chemical treatment. The tomites begin to develop and become theronts within the tomont cyst. Following a period of days (warm water temperatures) or weeks (cool water temperatures), the theronts bore out of the tomont cyst and become free-swimming, infective parasites in search of a fish host. These infective theronts must find a live fish to complete the parasite’s life cycle. This free-swimming phase is unprotected and, therefore, highly susceptible to chemicals. Treatment protocols should be designed to target this theront stage."

"Water temperature has a tremendous influence on how fast the life cycle of Ich (Figure 2) is completed. At warm temperatures (75°F–79°F), the life cycle is completed in about 3 to 6 days. At these temperatures, chemical treatments should be applied daily, and a minimum of 3 to 5 treatments are required. At cooler temperatures the life cycle is prolonged, and treatments should be spaced further apart. For example, at a water temperature of 60°F, treatments should be spaced 3 to 5 days apart with a minimum of five treatments. Treatments should never be discontinued until all mortality from Ich has stopped, and re-testing of fish may be necessary."

The Protozin only states the one 6 day course but it also states that it is suitable for cold water fish.
Am I missing something or would the 6 day course not work for cold water due to the fact that the Ich is happily living inside it's protected cyst for weeks?
I suppose it could be that the protozin continues to work after the last day of treatment but it would have to continue for weeks and hence no water changes would be allowed.
I think I need to send Waterlife, who make Protozin, an email to see what they say.