White Spot Traumas

[Wishful]

Hi

We have three clown loaches that we haven't had very long. Very soon after they arrived we noticed that they had white spot, so we started treating with a very gentle treatment called Parazoryne.

They have got progressively worse, and we also lost a Black Phantom Tetra to it, although the rest of the tank occupants look OK apart from a bit of flashing now and then. Unfortunately we rarely see the clowns, they hide in an imitation tree root, but we test the water daily and are reasonably sure that they are all still alive.

Trouble is, although we started to use Protozin yesterday on the advice of our lfs because the Parazoryne wasn't working, today one of the clowns has come out of the root and for about an hour he was floating around and about, occasionally swimming, but being turned upside down and breathing quite heavily. He has now disappeared in amongst some plant.

I'm guessing that he is unlikely to survive at this stage, his tail fin is quite badly shredded now and looking through a magnifying glass, there appears to be a sort of sloughing of his skin.

I detest the thought that we may lose him, or any of the others, but what I'm wondering is at what point do you 'know' that the fish won't survive, and do you help them on their way to be kind or is it best to let them be just in case they pull through. I can't bear the thought of them suffering.

Thanks

Wishful

 

[Nidge]

Hi wishfull,

Sorry to hear about your fish. First of all did you reduce the amount of medication because clowns have basically no scales so medication can do damage.

How long is your tank up and running?
The shredded fin could be finrot which is a sign of very bad water quality, Do large water changes each day about 50% and make sure to use water dechlorinator.
If the fish is as bad as you say i would put it out of its misery.

 

[Wishful]

Thanks Nidge

Our tank has been up and running for 2 months. We halved the Protozin as per the instructions because of the loaches.

Our water quality has been absolutely fine. We regularly test ammonia, pH, nitrate and nitrite and have had no problems at all, apart from a .5 rise in the pH after we did a 10% water change last week, we use Aquasafe to dechlorinate. If we did water changes while we are treating the tank, won't that compromise the medication?

The chap at our lfs said that the fins were ragged because of the white spot, is that not the case?

What is the best way to euthanase? We haven't any anaesthesia and I'm not sure either of us is capable of cutting off his head.

One of the other clowns has been out since I last posted and looks just as infested but is swimming fine. Will he definately go the same way?

 

[Wishful]

Well we didn't have to euthanase. He hadn't appeared back out of the plant, so we went searching and he had died. I just hope we can save the other two.

 

[littleme1969]

The problem with Ich is it leaves them open for secondary infections. Wich is usually what kill the fish rather than the ICH or the finrot. So chances are he had finrot too.

To put a fish out of its mysery the kindest and quickest way (thats if you don't want to donk them on the head with something ) is Ice water.. jug half full of water .... put about 6/8 ice cubes in there..leave for 5 mins then put the fish in... its usually over in about a minute as the fish just goes into shock then organ failure. Its reported to be the most painless and kind way to do it. I hate to see things suffer .

If I'm worried about a a group of fishes as their symptoms seem quite severe I always add an antibiotic to the water at the same time to ward off secondary bacterial infections and help with the healing. Melafix is good but its mild.. Maracyn is much stronger and is reported to be excellent for that type of use.

Hope all goes well with your little wormy freinds

 

[Wishful]

Thank you littleme. Where do you buy Melafix from? I was at the vet for my bunnies vaccinations the other day and asked if they had anaesthetic that I could keep on standby, but they didn't have any in stock. They said they'll let me know what they can get for me. In the meantime I'll bear the iced water in mind. I also heard the other day that people have used Alka Selzer - I have no idea in what quantity and the exact procedure - has anyone ever heard of this?

Our third dose of Protozin went in yesterday. The one clown that we keep seeing is still looking absolutely awful. Now we are getting very worried because we haven't seen the other one for about three days. Because they hide in their tree root (ever wished you hadn't bought something? For me it's that tree root), we have no idea whether the other one has expired in there.

Please can someone tell me - if there is a dead fish in the tank that you can't see - how do you tell? I'm guessing that it will show in the water quality, but what am I looking for? And are there any visual signs - will the water cloud for instance?

This is all very depressing.

 

[littleme1969]

Melafix is available online try.. Aquatics online I get alot of my stuff from them. Reasonable on price and good on delivery. You can also get it at most places that stock fish. Some smaller pet shops may have it but its generally the more specialist shops.

Dead fish....
2 options on that front... go looking for the body Which is what I would do...a bit grizzly..but hey it has to be done.
But if your looking for water changes I would say look for an Ammonia spike , all rotting things produce ammonia

Melafix is Ok for healing but won't solve a bacterial issue. Are loaches scaleless?..excuse the dumb question but I would expect they are from the catfish family... it something I don't and have never have had as most of my fish are community types. I'm saying that cos aquarium salt is good for healing but obviously can't be used for any type of the catfish family or any scaleless fish as it burns their skin.

I don't know what to suggest really ... I myself have had a few problems with getting fish from one shop.. I would get them home and they would develop finrot/dropsy/white spot within days sometimes within hours I put it down to the *Clean Conditions* in his tanks as he runs the whole place on a trickle system. This means there is always fresh tap water runing through the tanks and so *super Clean* water. We at home can't come close to that with our Cycled tanks and the stress of the change causes major problems . I changed my supplier to a small pet shop down the road...lol he only keeps a small selection , and looking at the tanks there was a few issues in there already... But his tanks are cyled and the Ph is the same... so hey presto.... no fish problems..no illness..no deaths... amazing... I even had 10 fry yesterday from a fish I got from him on wednesday . So where you buy from makes a huge difference.
After all my problems I ordered some Mardel Maracyn Plus from the states, as there is no strong antibiotic available to us here in the UK .. So when you have problems like yours theres bugger all you can do.

I would't bother with the anesthetic. Really... the ice water does a great job and its always on hand and cost nothing. They don't suffer at all I wouldn't do it if they did. And I don't agree with this sticking them in the freezer bit...it takes too long . Ice water does it in about a minute.

I really hope things sort themselves out for you .. I have been there myslef..not knowing what to do for the best ...and little lives relying on your actions..its not a nice place to be.

All the best

Nikki

 

[Hooligan]

Thats what happened to mine and Protozin is the only medicine that works for clowns to cure white spot.

Unfortunately I think they're going to die... sorry.

 

[Wishful]

Thanks Nikki

I'll certainly get hold of some Melafix, and I'll give up on the idea of the anaesthetics too. Loaches are scaleless, so we've had to halve the dose of the white spot treatment.

As for finding the body, most of the tank is easily searched, its just this bloomin' tree root thing. I don't know if you've seen them in the shops near you, they look like a sort of mangrove root thing, but they're hollow. When we put it in, it didn't occur to us that the fish might move into it, until we put in the clowns. They were in there within about ten seconds of being freed from the bag and since then only make occasional appearances and then very rarely did all three come out at once. When they first did this I called the fish shop asking what to do. They said that it shouldn't be a problem, but if I was that concerned, to take out the tree root gently and turn it upside down (out of the water) and the fish should come out - then fill it with gravel. Sadly, I did this and got a massive air glooping sound, but no fish. Since then we've never got to it quickly enough when all three were out to put gravel in. I'm really sad that it may have been this that caused the most stress and brought on the white spot.

The clown that did die came out of the tree root to do so, but the little one that we haven't seen for days definately isn't hiding anywhere else in the tank. So the only thing I can think of is to monitor the water carefully to check for ammonia spikes, at least I know what to look out for now - thank you - I really appreciate your help. Just done a water test and the ammonia is still at 0.6.

 

[Wishful]

Hiya Hooligan

It's good to know that at least we're using the right stuff now - although I think you're right, we'll lose the poor little things Do you know how much the effectiveness of the treatment is reduced by having to halve the dose? Also, after the treatment on the 6th day - do we do a water change and if so how much.

Also, we think we've found what appear to be the tomonts around the base of plants. I tried moving one but it broke apart - should we be trying to take them out of the tank, or will the Protozin just kill them off and they'll disappear?

Thanks for your help.

 

[David]

I bought 2 clown loaches recently and they both had ich, so I know how you feel. I cured mine with Rid-Ich, and it worked like a charm, without me losing a single fish. And I did NOT cut the medication in half, because the bottle said it's perfectly safe for scaleless fishes, and the spots were all gone in 4-5 days. They're happy and healthy now, swimming all over the tank. I'm getting 1 more today, and this time I'll stare at them for an hour and choose one that doesn't have a single white spot.

 

[littleme1969]

I don't think the product david mentioned is available in the UK
Yet again bloody typical... Massive costs in import for us guys, thats if you can find a place that will ship.. I was lucky

The thing about ICH is it stays in your water. The medication can only act on the spores that are water bound and not on the stuff that is on the fish. The stuff I used goes in at 4 day interval. so what the first dose don't get ...the second will, and you can say after 10 days you are clear.

I used INTREPET Anti White Spot Plus medication.. its available in most pet shops so is real easy to get hold of.. and whats more caught early...it works and works fast. I had 3 platies with white spot( got it within hours of going in the quarentine tank ) And the spots were gone in 2 days and fish back to normal very quickly.
From what I see on the box this IS SAFE for any type of Scaleless fish. SAYS HARMLESS TO ALL FISH AND PLANTS PLUS Filters. Even has a picture of a clown loach on the front. So you can give the full dose. I'm surprised the guy at the shop didnt sell you this. I have heard a few not so good comments on here about INTREPETs range of medication products , but I have never had a problem with any and i've used them for white spot/internal bacteria/fungus/finrot with great sucess I even use the water conditioner. One good thing about these products is they can be use at the same without any ill affects. I had to treat for finrot and white spot and all fish were fine. Plus as I said before they are available from local pet shops, so no trailing out to specialist and paying their silly prices

I hope you find the little guy

 

[Wishful]

Thanks for the advice Nikki. We are doing the dose of the Protozin tonight, but I've been advised by someone at Waterlife (the company that make it) that we can start dosing again in two days if need be.

The good news is that I've seen the loaches - well at least I think I have. After 2 days since we saw one of them and at least four since seeing the other, we really were beginning to wonder if they were alive. I phoned our lfs just now and he suggested just laying the tree root on it's side and if they're in there I'd see a flash of tail at least. (Doh! Why didn't I think of that moment!) Sure enough, there was fishy going in and out. In a bad way but still alive and moving around happily. I think I saw both because I'm sure one has less tail left than the other Still - at least they're still there so there's hope yet!

In future I'll remember what you say about the Interpet products being safe to use together, that's useful cos I'm pretty sure they have finrot as well now.

At least they're alive!

 

[littleme1969]

That's great news bless em

I think if they are still alive now you're over the worst

Just checked and the whole range is safe for all fish, And with 3 happy corys in my tank....... I think the proof is there swiming round like a mad thing

Fingers crossed that the worst of the problem is over for you and your little fishie buddies. And don't be too cross with the tree root

nikki

 

[fufanu360]

if they have finrot ur screwed becuase its very hard to get rid of