White Cloud Emergency

[aquababy]

Hi.

Could someone please help me find the cause of death in my White Cloud Minnows. They seem perfectly fine, eating, swimming, bullying each other and then they develop a white mark on their lower lip which makes the lower lip swell. This then spreads to the entire mouth/face. The face then becomes white and the fish swim around with their swollen mouths wide open after which they can't swim (they get tossed around). They seem to die at this stage.
All this happens in one day. The white mark/spot appears suddenly and always on the bottom lip. Whatever this disease is it doesn't seem to affect the other fish (tetras, corys) in my tank.
All the White Cloud Minnows I have had have died this way. One fish will die then another straight after will get the symptoms.
The longest I have had White Cloud Minnows survive has been 2 weeks.

 

[aquababy]

Just to let you know I phoned the petshop today and they think its a fungal infection. The assitant said I should treat the sick minnow with melafix and do a water change in 10 days since I did one yesterday. She also said if this doesn't work in a couple of days then I need to try a different finrot and fungal infection treatment. I told her that it only seems to affect the minnows and asked wether this is because the disease or bacteria thats killing them only affects the fish that swim near the top. she said fungal infections will attack all fish in the tank.

 

[Colin_T]

The white mouth that spreads rapidly is Columnaris, commonly called mouth fungus. It is actually a bacterial infection and a real nasty one that grows rapidly and kills most fish it infects. Melafix won't do anything to it. You will need something that specifically treats Columnaris.
Make sure the tank is well maintained, clean filter & gravel, and regular water changes. Then check all new fish before you buy them. If you see one sick fish in the tank don't buy any from that tank.

 

[jollysue]

White Cloud Minnows prefer temperature ranges between 45F - 70F (7 c - 21 c.) Keeping fish at temperatures that are incompatible to them often causes them to either just die from the energy they lose trying to maintain their correct temperature (darting around, etc.) or will likely result in disease. Columnaris is a frequent result of too high temperatures.

Go to the emergency section. Alert and ask for Wilder. Ask how to handle the temperature for your cold water minnows and still treat a viral infection of bacterial/fungal cotton mouth/columnaris. They likely are infected with both a positive and negative bacterial and a secondary of fungus.

The little guys are very sick. You need to have a quaratine tank. Remove all symptomatic fish an treat as Wilder instructs. The temps need adjusting for the well fish tank, and it may do to teat it as well. But the sick fish need to be quarantined because these are very contagious and it has become viral it sounds like.

 

[aquababy]

Thanks for tracking my post jollysue. The problem with quarantine is I don't have a quarantine tank. Newbie fishkeepers never realise when buying or aquiring their first ever aquarium that they may ever need another one. I have just done some reading on columnaris and doesnt seem to mention the whole face becoming white and bloated and the fish unable to close their mouths. It describes the fungal infection as stringy and soft wool like and spreads to other parts of the body also mentions sores,eaten flesh and sometimes shimmying behaviour but my fish have'nt shown any of these signs.
I am slowly turning the temperature down until its at about 21c. I have written down the name of some antibiotics that are known to be very effective in treating this problem and the websites I used recommended using salts and doing salt baths. Will turning the temprature down affect the corys. I know using the salts will.
I'm going to head for the emergency section now and see what help Wilder can offer.

 

[Colin_T]

Having the temperature on 21-22C will be fine for the corydoras catfish.

If you have Columnaris in the tank you need to treat the tank otherwise the bacteria will just infect any new fish you put in there.
Columnaris starts off as a small red or white patch on the mouth and as it spreads the entire mouth becomes white and a bit puffed up. Over a few days the disease can spread over the face destroying tissue as it goes. Normally the fish die when it gets to this stage, often sooner. In warmer water the bacterium grows faster and spreads more quickly.

Mouth fungus is different to fungus. Fungal infections appear as white fluffy patches on the fish. The fungal spores get into damaged areas on the fish. Mouth fungus almost always starts at the mouth and works its way over the head and onto the body. Fungus grows quite slowly compared to Columnaris and a fish can have fungus on parts of its body for days without any major damage. Eventually fungus will kill the fish, just nowhere near as quickly as Columnaris does.

Salt won’t kill it, you need an anti bacterial medication. If you catch the fish out and give them a salt bath you will actually make the problem worse. Whenever you handle a fish you do some damage to the slime coating over their body. This coating helps protect the fish from diseases like bacteria & fungal infections. The more damage to the slime coating, the easier it is for diseases to get into the fish. Just leave the fish in the tank and treat the entire tank with something that is safe for catfish.

To work out the volume of water in the tank
measure Length x Width x Height in cm
divide by 1000
equals volume in litres

When measuring the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level. If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove them before measuring the height.

Before you treat the tank do a 50% water change and complete gravel clean. This will reduce the gunk in the tank and allow the medication to work more effectively. It will also lower the pathogen count in the water and mean there are less nasties around to infect the fish.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating otherwise it will absorb the medication out of the water.

 

[jollysue]

Without lab tests and a vet it is not possible to be sure of a diagnosis from symptoms alone. You likely have several infections. It is called primary and secondary infections. So I treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic that also treats fungus. But the meds are different in the States. The confusion from diagnosing from the symptoms can occur becuase of the multiple infections.

Wilder has specialized in fish emergency for a very long time. Her experience is more than most on the forum.

I have concerns about changing the temps because columnaris is usually treated by turning the temps up to above 80 degrees to increase the time of the bacteria cycle. It usually comes back after the first treatment.

Different species of Corys like different temperature ranges. Some do not do well abve 70 F.; some do not do well below 75 F.; some need to be between 71 and 76 long term. Sorry, I think in faranheit.

I am leaving for work now.

Oh! and I have treated a Cory with salt and the "Fixes" with success when the Cory had some form of this.

 

[aquababy]

I have posted some pictures of my sick fish on the emergency thread. It would be great if you guys could take a look. I managed to get a hold of a friend who has been a fishkeeper for years and works at a petshop(aquarium dept). I told him what had happened with the minnows. He said he had something similiar and it was something to do with when the fish fight and nip each other. They develop fungal infections that enter the body from any wounded area. He said he just added salts and did regular water changes. I read online that it helps to keep the fungal infections under control if everything is extra clean. I gave the tank a good clean last night and scrubbed all ornaments, washed the plants and washed the gravel and did a 20% water change but the minnow that was infected still died (my fish seem to die after doing a water change) I have only one minnow left now. The other fish are still ok.
My main concern at the moment is getting a diagnosis. According to what colin_T has said its definitely columnaris but I hope the pictures I have posted help everyone get a more definite diagnosis because you guys are having to diagnose a problem from what I'm telling you and I don't have the experiance to examine in detail like you do. Experianced fishkeepers know what to look for. All I can do is keep my dead fish in a jar in the fridge for a couple of days and examine them when someone on this forum asks a question that might help in the diagnosis. Keeping the dead fish in the fridge isn't exactly my cup of tea and the kids get really grossed out. My hubby isn't too impressed either he thinks I've lost my mind .

 

[Colin_T]

If you need to preserve fish put them in a container with 25% alcohol and 75% water. They will last forever under those conditions. The alcohol might make the eyes go white and will stop any new fungus from growing. It will also stop the body falling apart and smelling bad.

 

[Syphoniera]

I have posted some pictures of my sick fish on the emergency thread. It would be great if you guys could take a look. I managed to get a hold of a friend who has been a fishkeeper for years and works at a petshop(aquarium dept). I told him what had happened with the minnows. He said he had something similiar and it was something to do with when the fish fight and nip each other. They develop fungal infections that enter the body from any wounded area. He said he just added salts and did regular water changes. I read online that it helps to keep the fungal infections under control if everything is extra clean. I gave the tank a good clean last night and scrubbed all ornaments, washed the plants and washed the gravel and did a 20% water change but the minnow that was infected still died (my fish seem to die after doing a water change) I have only one minnow left now. The other fish are still ok.
My main concern at the moment is getting a diagnosis. According to what colin_T has said its definitely columnaris but I hope the pictures I have posted help everyone get a more definite diagnosis because you guys are having to diagnose a problem from what I'm telling you and I don't have the experiance to examine in detail like you do. Experianced fishkeepers know what to look for. All I can do is keep my dead fish in a jar in the fridge for a couple of days and examine them when someone on this forum asks a question that might help in the diagnosis. Keeping the dead fish in the fridge isn't exactly my cup of tea and the kids get really grossed out. My hubby isn't too impressed either he thinks I've lost my mind .

Hi, aquababy,
I've been so sorry to hear of your troubles, the more so as I have WCM myself, lost one a while back in a pea incident, and can empathize.
This is probably a very silly question, but do you regularly wash off ornaments, plants and gravel when cleaning the tank?
Did you clean these in tank water?
I ask because the aquarium apparently functions as a unit, and while we always hear of caution being necessary due to the need for maintenance of filter bacteria, we're not always warned that too-thorough cleaning, even within the tank, of gravel, plants and other objects which have become populated with beneficial bacteria, can eliminate enough nitrifying bacteria to cause a nasty ammonia spike and I wasn't sure if you were aware of this or not, or on the watch for such possibility.
Just thought I'd better mention, in case.
The very best of luck.

 

[aquababy]

Just thought Id let you know (and anyone reading this post) that I'm treating the tank with Anti internal Bacteria and Pimafix. Wilder said the pimafix would be ok to use with the Anti Internal Bacteria treatment and would help with the symptoms of the other fish. I have different posts for the White Cloud Minnow, Neon Tetras and a post in the Emergency Section but even though I have all these different posts I think the root/cause of the problems is the same its just affected the fish in different ways. I have only one White Cloud Minnow left now and almost promised myself I would never get any more because I have had the most problems with them. I have now realised that Its not that I was having bad luck with keeping WCM but because I had a bacteria/disease within my tank and it probably was attacking the WCM first because they were a more weaker or should I say vunerable species.
ColinT thanks for the tip on preserving my fish, at least I don't have to look at rotting dead fish now even though my husband will think Ive totally gone insane and have a fridge full of dead preserved fish
jollysue when you mean salt treatment do you mean salt baths or adding salts to the tank?
Thanks for all your kind words and sympathy syphoniera. I do wash all my tank ornaments regularly(in tank water) and have once(recently) washed them without tank water incase there was any bad bacterias and fungal infections hiding there. The reason why I have done this is because my fish have suffered from what may be fungal infections and I felt it neccessary to clean everything but thanks for letting me know. I'm sure this information will still be useful to anyone reading this post that might not know. When I set up my tank newly I didn't know and someone on a different forum put me right. So keep up the good work.