What Is This? Is This Fin Rot Or Ich Or Both?

[Smoochy]

Good evening all,

I have been having a problem in my tank since Thanksgiving now, and today I lost Smoochy. My favorite Blood Parrot Cichlid that I had for 4 years. I have posted on another forum, however I am still not sure what to do. Any assistance would be appreciated.


All are after tank has been medicated:

Tank size: 75 gal filtered by an eheim 2217
pH: 8.0
ammonia: .18 ppm
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 20
kH: 180
gH: 60
tank temp: 81*

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
Started out with torn fins. This included splits, and slight fraying which increased the next day. I treated with Melafix, salt, raised the temperature to 81* and fed them with Jungle Medicated food. After 3 days, I noticed that all fish had split fins, so I decided to look for a different medication. At this point I was informed to try Furan-2. This greatly improved all fish after 2 days, but the 2 blood parrots still had not improved after 4 days (the full treatment cycle), at which time I decided to move them to a hospital tank for another treatment as per the instructions. Here I began re-treating them with Furan-2 until they came down with Ich. I then ceased treatment for fin rot, did a 50% water change and began treating for Ich since it is more deadly. The Ich cleared after one day, and I continued treating one more day as per instructions. The following day, I did a 50% water change to begin treating for fin rot once again, with Furan-2 again. At this time, The 2 blood parrots were acting better, but were beginning to get black marks on their fins, and it looked as if their fins were deteriorating further. The following day, one of the blood parrots died.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: 25% every week

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Amquel+ with every water change

Tank inhabitants: 2 blood parrot cichlids (now down to 1 ) 1 convict cichlid, 2 red zebra cichlids, 2 unknown (picture provided) and 1 black tipped shark

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): none. No changes for 2 months now.

Exposure to chemicals: None that I can think of. BUT the clear plastic covers for this tank are broken, and the tank has no hood. I have been trying to find new plastic pieces, as well as a hood since I got the tank and have no been able to find either. I was about ready to make my own.

Here are pictures:

Here is the Blood Parrot that died today:

As you can see, his fins were frayed, and there was a black mark on it.

Here is the Convict:

I think he's doing ok. His fins look fine.

Here is one of the unknowns

You can see on the top fin, it is deteriorated, and there is a little bit of white on the deteriorated edge of the fin.

Here is the orange red zebra:

He has the same fin deterioration on the top of his back fin, and white along the edge.

Here is the Blue red zebra:

He seems to be doing just fine.

The only fish not pictured is the black tipped shark, and he has one split in his tail.

After some research, I believe it may be Columnaris Disease. It was stated that this could be due to temperature changes. Here in the great state of Texas we have been having some pretty erratic weather. Anywhere from 40-80 degrees recently. One day we will leave the house with the heat on, and come home and have it be 82 degrees in the house, the next day have to have the air on. I think this may have had some impact on the tank, even though I have a heater.


Any help is appreciated. I still would like the opinions of others, as I really have never delt with fish sicknesses before. I basically just don't even know what to do anymore... I need to find out what this is... if it's really fin rot and Ich combined, or something else, and find out the best measures to take at this time.

 

[WILDER]

You have an ammonia reading have to find out what causing it.
Bad water quality takes in toll on fish as stress weakens there immune system and thins there slime coat.
How often do you do a gravel vac and water change.
Do you over feed the fish.

Black patches are ammonia burns that are healing.
Whitespot looks like the fish has been sprinkled in salt.
White edging to fins is bacterial finrot.

Bacterial finrot can look like the fins are falling apart.
Any red streaking or red edging to the fins.

 

[Smoochy]

You have an ammonia reading have to find out what causing it.
Bad water quality takes in toll on fish as stress weakens there immune system and thins there slime coat.
How often do you do a gravel vac and water change.
Do you over feed the fish.

Black patches are ammonia burns that are healing.
Whitespot looks like the fish has been sprinkled in salt.
White edging to fins is bacterial finrot.

Bacterial finrot can look like the fins are falling apart.
Any red streaking or red edging to the fins.

I do water changes of 25% each week using the vacuum with Amquel+ The Amquel+ is supposed to also bring the ammonia down by up to .15 per dose.... Hard to believe because for the past week I have been doing almost 50% water changes everyday, and those tests were performed yesterday. Could the medications be causing the ammonia to read that high?

It is a possibility that I am over feeding the fish lately, as they are not eating any longer. I was feeding them Jungle Medicated food, and since then, they are no longer interested in the food I put in the tank. Normally however, I feed once a day, watch them eat and they gobble everything up in a min.

The Blood Parrot that is remaining in the hospital tank does have more black splotches on his tail fin as of today. The Whitespot cleared when I treated them for that. The Blood Parrot also has a white edging to his tails with the Black marks. No red marks are apparent anywhere on any of the fish.

At this point I was unsure of what to do. I did a 50% water change today, and put carbon back in the filter to hopefully bring the tank back to some sort of norm before treating the fish again. I have the following: Furan-2, Aquarium Salt, Jungle Medicated food, Quick Cure, Clout, Ich clear, and Melafix.

Others have mentioned a salt dip... would this be the best course of action at this time? Or should I resort back to one of the many medications I now have in my closet. By the way, I have not given all of these medications at once.... for anyone wondering. I have actually not treated with more than one at a time... except the food....

 

[WILDER]

How long did you use the bacterial med and medicated food as they can take time to work.
Did the ammonia reading happen after the med course or before.

 

[Smoochy]

I have been using the medicated food for one week now.

I was using the Furan-2 for 3 days until they came down with Ich, then I had to switch to treating them for that, then I have just been treating with the medicated food, salt, and melafix.... that has been for 3 days now.

The ammonia reading (and actually all water parameters) were taken after the tank has been medicated, but before that day's dose.

 

[minxfishy]

Is there something in the tank that could be causing the ammonia? Dead fish, rotting plants?

You have a mix of american and african cichlids in there which is not recommended and would not have helped in the stress levels of the fish, combined with water quality, fin and ich would have most probably caused the BP to die.

The black marks on the fins looks like ammonia burns, the fraying fins can be from the water quality or from fighting, nipping from the other fish.

I would suggest you up your water changes to 2 x 30% weekly to get the water quality better.

 

[Smoochy]

No dead fish, no rotting plants. I do not have any live plants in this tank, as the last time I had them, the fish uprooted them and killed them as cichlids will.

I was not aware of the severity of mixing these fish... I informed the LFS which fish I had in my tank, and they stated it would be no problem... I intend to re-evaluate the stocking after I can clear all of this up, though. I have a 36g, a 75g, a 10g, and a 5g currently, so treating fish separately, and then separating them all together is no problem.

I am very confused as to why they would have ammonia burns, honestly. I perform gravel vac water changes every week, and add amquel+ in the correct dose every week at the time of the water change... Another member was stating that the black spots on the Blood Parrots could be from stress, as it is very common on them. I would think this is a more likely cause, since no other fish seem to have them... I have never experienced ammonia problems before, could the medications bring the ammonia level up that high?

As far as the mix of fish, I have had all of these fish together for about a year. They were previously in my 36g together until I got the 75. I have never witnessed any aggression EXCEPT for the blue red zebra. But he has never before gone after the BPs, they were much larger and stood their ground.


Either way, as of today it seems that I have another problem. The black tipped shark that I have in the 75 shows signs of another sickness. A few of his scales have lifted on his side, and it looks to be red under them. I am going to quarantine him by himself in the 5g and treat him separately. I remember reading about these symptoms, but I don't remember what it is or how to treat it as I have been researching so much I can't keep anything straight anymore... Some type of internal parasite is what I am guessing. I plan on going to read again...

This is all so odd to me still. I have been doing 50% water changes in the 75g every 3 days for the past 2 weeks to try to rid that tank of whatever is in it. Perhaps I should be more aggressive? Maybe it's time to treat the whole tank?

 

[SharonCC]

The Zebra are probably the cause of all your problems These are very aggressive fish, and are probably injuring the others. Once injured, and under stress, infection will be the next problem. It's good to treat ...but the Zebras will have to come out and SOON! They will destroy every fish in that tank.

 

[WILDER]

Meds could of knocked your water stats.
I would carry on with water changes till the ammonia reading is 0.
Increase aeration.

 

[Smoochy]

The Zebra are probably the cause of all your problems These are very aggressive fish, and are probably injuring the others. Once injured, and under stress, infection will be the next problem. It's good to treat ...but the Zebras will have to come out and SOON! They will destroy every fish in that tank.

What other fish can they be kept with? I have no problems putting them into the 36gal ASAP, however I would like to know what else to stock that tank with in the future.

Thanks!

Also, here are the new water parameters:

10g Hospital currently treated with 2 doses of melafix, and 2 tsp of aquarium salt:

PH:7.9
Ammonia: .2 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm
KH: 200
GH:60
Alk: 3.6
Temp: 81


75g currently untreated, last treated one week ago with Furan2:

PH: 7.9
Ammonia: .1 ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 2.5 ppm
KH: 240
GH: 120
Alk: 3.6
Temp: 78

 

[Smoochy]

Well, it turns out this is Columnaris.

I have moved everyone out of the 75. The BP and orange red zebra are in the 10g healing. The rest are in the 36 being treated with Furan-2. Everyone is getting Jungle Anti Bac food, salt, and I have reduced the temp in all tanks to 75.

I hope I have caught this soon enough for everyone to heal just fine.

Either way, the 75 is getting emptied and sterilized.

 

[minxfishy]

What makes you think this is columnaris? Can you explain the symptoms the fish are showing please? Non of those photos show any signs of columnaris, if it is, then its because of the water quality, you need to get that ammonia to 0, adding medication to a tank that has ammonia in it, will not be helpful as the stress the fish are under for the ammonia poisoning will contradict any medication you are adding to the tank.

Whereabouts are you? US I assume? or UK? Need this infor to recommend meds.

 

[Smoochy]

What makes you think this is columnaris? Can you explain the symptoms the fish are showing please? Non of those photos show any signs of columnaris, if it is, then its because of the water quality, you need to get that ammonia to 0, adding medication to a tank that has ammonia in it, will not be helpful as the stress the fish are under for the ammonia poisoning will contradict any medication you are adding to the tank.

Whereabouts are you? US I assume? or UK? Need this infor to recommend meds.

I am in the US.

What led me to believe it was Columnaris is that my Red Zebra ended up getting the small sores on his side that were white with red around them, as well as the swelled up white lips. The other fish had the fin rot portion of it, and one of my fish died in a matter of 24 hours. Unfortunately, it was almost impossible to show all of the details in the pictures, and once the male Red Zebra showed those signs, I was positive that's what it was.

The 75gal has an eheim 2217, and an Aquaclear 500 on it at all times. I do 25% water changes once a week with Amquel+ I have water testing reagents and I check the parameters quite often. I can assure you that before this outbreak, the water parameters were perfect. What I believe happened is the glass tops to the 75gal broke. I did not have a hood over the tank, and could not find new glass. I have 2 cats and a dog... I am thinking some type of foreign object got into the tank which combined with the stress caused by my poor stocking, created this even bigger problem.

I treated the fish in 2 separate groups. Those with the sores on their side were treated with 2 complete cycles of Furan-2, cooler water (74 degrees F) and salt. Those with only the fin rot portion of it were treated with 8 days of Melafix, salt and 75 deg F water.

All of the fish besides the one who died in 24 hours are living and are healthy. I have started up the 36G again as well as cleaned the 75G compeltely, and have separated everyone into more compatible groups until after Christmas when I will bring the Bala shark back to the fish store. I am just so relieved to be done with this!!!